F4U Torque Roll Video (FATAL)

[Krupi]

I have seen a few videos where a pilot has made a mistake on take off from a carrier and ended up in the drink, this one however is particularly bad.

I am trying to understand what happened in this case, was it to do with incorrect trim, perhaps he increased power at the wrong moment or perhaps the catapult launch accentuated a mistake?

This video shows other launches from the same day I believe.

This is a great channel I have been meaning to share it previously, focus is on the lighter escort carrier ops, wealth of videos.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Krupi

[Gunfreak]

Same thing that happens if you add full power on take off in the 109K4 in DCS.

[Talisman_VR]

   "I am trying to understand what happened in this case, was it to do with incorrect trim, perhaps he increased power at the moment or perhaps the catapult launch accentuated a mistake?"

At the end of the second vid the report said that it is believed that the pilot lost the stick during the initial thrust of the catapult and that he was unable to retrieve it in time to regain control.

Happy landings,

Talisman

 

[Krupi]

1 hour ago, Talisman_VR said:

   "I am trying to understand what happened in this case, was it to do with incorrect trim, perhaps he increased power at the moment or perhaps the catapult launch accentuated a mistake?"

At the end of the second vid the report said that it is believed that the pilot lost the stick during the initial thrust of the catapult and that he was unable to retrieve it in time to regain control.

Happy landings,

Talisman

 

Ah didn’t get the chance to watch that one all the way to the end, thank you. 

That would explain why the ones I have seen previously look so different, crashes that I have seen attributed to torque were during waved off landings where the pilots go full throttle and rotate in.

[Talisman_VR]

1 hour ago, Krupi said:

Ah didn’t get the chance to watch that one all the way to the end, thank you. 

That would explain why the ones I have seen previously look so different, crashes that I have seen attributed to torque were during waved off landings where the pilots go full throttle and rotate in.

Many thanks for posting the video clips.  They were very interesting. 

Happy landings,

Talisman

[derbarbarian]

Funnily enough, I was doing some reading on Corsairs and this thread popped up. I'm a bit late to the party but from what I've been told by Corsair pilots I've talked to, a lot of the younger pilots would get into trouble in the Corsair because they would either get into a situation where they would panic or simply forgot their training (perhaps didn't receive adequate training) and jam the throttle to max which due to a mixture of the torque produced by the engine and the large prop would cause essentially cause an uncommanded roll/bank to the left which would cause the plane to roll onto it's back, at low altitude that's not a recoverable situation unfortunately. There was a good article by the Smithsonian about this very topic that came out a few years ago, I'll try to find it. 

Welp, that took all of 2 minutes. 

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/spoiler-alert-1-180977803/

[=475FG= Dawger]

It would be great if DCS warbirds properly simulated engine/prop torque and other factors but it doesn’t. 
 

The P-51 demonstrably has no torque while the 109 has ‘some’. 
 

If the Corsair gets proper modeling, folks will be quite surprised but it would then be at a severe disadvantage against the other modules. 

[Talisman_VR]

4 hours ago, derbarbarian said:

Funnily enough, I was doing some reading on Corsairs and this thread popped up. I'm a bit late to the party but from what I've been told by Corsair pilots I've talked to, a lot of the younger pilots would get into trouble in the Corsair because they would either get into a situation where they would panic or simply forgot their training (perhaps didn't receive adequate training) and jam the throttle to max which due to a mixture of the torque produced by the engine and the large prop would cause essentially cause an uncommanded roll/bank to the left which would cause the plane to roll onto it's back, at low altitude that's not a recoverable situation unfortunately. There was a good article by the Smithsonian about this very topic that came out a few years ago, I'll try to find it. 

Welp, that took all of 2 minutes. 

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/spoiler-alert-1-180977803/

Thanks.  Looks like the article is covering the low and slow on landing issue re sudden increase in power.  Very dangerous.  Hard to control natural instincts in times of stress.

Happy landings,

Talisman

Edited November 10, 2024 by Talisman_VR

[Art-J]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

It would be great if DCS warbirds properly simulated engine/prop torque and other factors but it doesn’t. 
 

The P-51 demonstrably has no torque while the 109 has ‘some’. 
 

^ Repeating the same BS ad nauseam in yet another thread won't make it real I'd say, but hey, you do you. One might argue about amount of torque on Mustang or other DCS warbirds, but it's demonstrably there allright.

I left-flipped and crashed DCS Mustang years in almost exact manner as on video simply by forgetting about flaps full down on takeoff and being caught off guard by pitch-up after premature liftoff. Engine and prop effects did the rest. I suspect one can repeat it in DCS by doing what the poor guy on the vid did, which is adding extra elevator up and rudder left, making things worse. He only pushed the stick once he was already too deep in a stall.

[=475FG= Dawger]

31 minutes ago, Art-J said:

^ Repeating the same BS ad nauseam in yet another thread won't make it real I'd say, but hey, you do you. One might argue about amount of torque on Mustang or other DCS warbirds, but it's demonstrably there allright.

I left-flipped and crashed DCS Mustang years in almost exact manner as on video simply by forgetting about flaps full down on takeoff and being caught off guard by pitch-up after premature liftoff. Engine and prop effects did the rest. I suspect one can repeat it in DCS by doing what the poor guy on the vid did, which is adding extra elevator up and rudder left, making things worse. He only pushed the stick once he was already too deep in a stall.

The DCS Mustang will not torque roll unless the wing is stalled, which is very obviously incorrect. You can ask any real Mustang pilot, which I have. Plus I have flown high powered single engine propeller driven aircraft (and multiengine). Torque is real and constant, not something that only happens when the wing is aerodynamically stalled.

Since you are familiar with my  "same BS ad nauseam" you are undoubtedly familiar with the flaps and gear down, slow to 130 and cram the throttle demonstration a certain WWII Mustang leader required his new pilots to do at altitude in order to hammer home the danger of torque. Doing this demonstration in DCS is a severe non-event.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

That doesn't mean "the P-51 has no torque", which the the stupid thing you said. The P-51 do have torque and it's obviously there every take off, landing and just taxiing on the ground.

If you have any real data supporting what you say about that torque roll in that particular situation beyond hearsay, go make a proper bug report or thread with all that data. We will all appreciate the enhancement in the flight model.

Otherwise "change it because I say so" is still no proof nor help for anything.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Ala13_ManOWar

[=475FG= Dawger]

14 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

That doesn't mean "the P-51 has no torque", which the the stupid thing you said. The P-51 do have torque and it's obviously there every take off, landing and just taxiing on the ground.

If you have any real data supporting what you say about that torque roll in that particular situation beyond hearsay, go make a proper bug report or thread with all that data. We will all appreciate the enhancement in the flight model.

Otherwise "change it because I say so" is still no proof nor help for anything.

 

Its easy to demonstrate this to yourself. Just trim the pony out for level flight at any speed you like, take your hands off the stick  and run the throttle from stop to stop and watch how little the thing reacts.

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger

[Yo-Yo]

Torque in this kind of aircraft is mostly yaw effect than roll. This is trim curves for take-off power for P-51 that show very low aileron deflection to trim the plane even near stall.
In DCS we can see exactly the same.
 

[Yo-Yo]

Returning to the Corsair video... It is obvious, that the initial movement was AOA increasing (wrong trimmer, uncontrolled stick movement, wind gust - I can not say), then left yaw that was a result of increased P-factor due to high AoA, and only after that roll started as a result of sideslip. 
The well known P-51 accident, when the plane flips over, was started just at the moment when the pilot decided to wave-off just before the touchdown and applied full power. Try this with DCS P-51, and the result will be the same.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

17 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Its easy to demonstrate this to yourself. Just trim the pony out for level flight at any speed you like, take your hands off the stick  and run the throttle from stop to stop and watch how little the thing reacts.

I don't need to demonstrate myself anything, it's you who need facts to support your bold claims.

Anyhow, the first video in OP, the one commented, is very well known as it was studied in case it was some malfunctioning of the plane. Engineers concluded it's NO TORQUE ROLL, it was most probably than not just the stick slipped out from the pilot's hand while he wasn't paying attention at catapult launch and he couldn't grab it back in time to recover... You're welcome.

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

I don't need to demonstrate myself anything, it's you who need facts to support your bold claims.

 

This would probably help but I know no one here will bother. https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Physics-Self-Teaching-Karl-Kuhn/dp/0471134473

 

And there certainly was a torque roll in that video. As soon as the aircraft got below the speed that it was trimmed for to counteract the torque present, it immediately rolled around its long axis.

Which is my entire point.

Torque does not magically appear and disappear. Its always there. X torque at Y power/RPM counteracted by V airspeed and D control deflection. Change either Y or V  and D must change to counter it.

 

[Ala13_ManOWar]

4 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

And there certainly was a torque roll in that video. As soon as the aircraft got below the speed that it was trimmed for to counteract the torque present, it immediately rolled around its long axis.

No, there isn't, ailerons are fully deflected rolling left as the aircraft does roll all the way left mate... Look at the video closely again.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Ala13_ManOWar

[-Rudel-]

That aileron is deflecting down trying to roll right.

Edited November 13, 2024 by -Rudel-

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, -Rudel- said:

That aileron is deflecting down trying to roll right.

 

Yes, it’s obvious that the left aileron is down and the right is fully up but the engine torque completely overpowers full aileron deflection at that speed. 

[Krupi]

 

4 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Yes, it’s obvious that the left aileron is down and the right is fully up but the engine torque completely overpowers full aileron deflection at that speed. 

Unfortunately with that high an angle of attack and low speed how much authority would the ailerons have? Virtually none.

I get the impression that attributing it to torque roll is a mistake. It was a loss of control fundamentally, the question is what caused the nose up.

Edited November 13, 2024 by Krupi

[Krupi]

Pretty compelling.

[=475FG= Dawger]

11 minutes ago, Krupi said:

Unfortunately with that high an angle of attack and low speed how much authority would the ailerons have? Virtually none.

It isn’t overpowered, at low speed and angle attack it simply doesn’t have airflow.

I get the impression that attributing it to torque roll is a mistake. It was a loss of control fundamentally, the question is what caused the nose up.

 

That is exactly my point throughout this years long saga. Torque is a constant at a given power setting and is counteracted by the combination of control deflection and airspeed. 

It’s difficult to see if there is any elevator movement but the airplane yaws hard left almost immediately and you can see full aileron is applied. It doesn’t look like he lost the stick

My guess is not enough rudder and inadvertent back stick when he crammed full right stick

 

[Krupi]

11 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

That is exactly my point throughout this years long saga. Torque is a constant at a given power setting and is counteracted by the combination of control deflection and airspeed. 

It’s difficult to see if there is any elevator movement but the airplane yaws hard left almost immediately and you can see full aileron is applied. It doesn’t look like he lost the stick

My guess is not enough rudder and inadvertent back stick when he crammed full right stick

 

Sorry what is your point?

I am saying this has little to do with torque and entirely due to pilot error.

Edited November 13, 2024 by Krupi

[=475FG= Dawger]

5 hours ago, Krupi said:

Sorry what is your point?

I am saying this has little to do with torque and entirely due to pilot error.

 

The pilot mistake is not enough right rudder to counteract the torque of the engine, resulting in a strong left yaw as soon as he was off the deck and things go downhill from there. 
 

If there was no engine torque, he doesn’t die. 
 

 

[Krupi]

5 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The pilot mistake is not enough right rudder to counteract the torque of the engine, resulting in a strong left yaw as soon as he was off the deck and things go downhill from there. 
 

If there was no engine torque, he doesn’t die. 
 

 

The main issue isn’t the torque it isn’t the rudder or even the ailerons. The incident all stems from the elevator, as soon as the nose pulls up he was pretty much doomed. 

After the pitch up the pilot has no control, the only one that has any effect is when the elevator is pushed forward but by then it is too late. Watch the last video, slowed down it is pretty clear.

Torque related accidents occur when the throttle is opened at low speed and it is the sudden increase coupled with the lack of authority from control surfaces which lead to an accident. That is not the case here.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Krupi