A P-51D Cockpit that Looks and Feels... Right.

[Bowie]

EDIT: From post #26
 

Had an interesting turn of events on this project.

Was thinking that a "look down" button would be useful, as there are the fuel switch/gauges, as well as the side panels to deal with.

So switched settings/assignments for the two upper snap view buttons.

... and, with the other corrections, the views were the same, as 30º view angle change w/ the "40" zoom is native.

 

Zeroed the "vAngle", and tasked, instead of "Camera view up slow", "View Center" to the upper right(JOY_BTN6) button. (gunsight view)

And tasked, instead of "View Center" w/ the - 30º depression angle, "Camera view down slow", to the upper left(JOY_BTN5) button. (panel view)

 

So, now, the upper right button is all/only "gunsight view", without the annoying double-clutch higher views from the "Camera view up slow" function.

And, the upper left button is "panel view", and "lower panel view" with the second push, and pan from there.

Also, once the lower panel view is altered, even by just bumping the pan hat, the upper left button will bring back the "panel view", moving the view back up.

This also effects panning in the "panel view" itself, as the upper left button will reset to initial "panel view" as well.

 

This is very fast for in-cockpit work, like start-up and monitoring flight parameters and fuel.

Really Good - got better.

 

The original post:

 

In a real cockpit, there are no panoramic views.

And frame members, like the windscreen bow, are relatively substantial structural elements.

Look out around them, or look down at the instrument panel and that's all you can see.

This equates to ~ a 60º field of view, and a - 30º depression angle for the Instrument Panel view.

DCS - provides a panoramic view at the expense of "zoom angle", which makes everything outside the cockpit look smaller, resulting in spotting difficulty at even reasonably close ranges.

 

Solution: Scale the cockpit with zoom.

With Notepad++, open C:/user/"user name"/Saved Games/DCS.openbeta/Config/View/SnapViews.lua.

(make a copy first and rename it. e.g. "SnapViews - OEM.lua"

Find the "P-51D" section/[13]  (mine is row 5192)

Change (copy/paste):

    [13] = {--default view
        viewAngle        = 40.000000,--FOV Cockpit Zoom 40.000000, OEM 80.000000
        viewAngleVertical= 0.000000,--VFOV
        hAngle            = 0.000000,
        vAngle            = -30.000000,-- Cockpit View Angle -30.00000, OEM -9.500000
        x_trans            = 0.120000,-- Cockpit View In_Trans 0.000000, OEM 0.120000
        y_trans            = 0.0600000,-- Cockpit View Up_Trans 0.060000, OEM 0.059000
        z_trans            = 0.000000,-- Cockpit View Rt_Trans 0.000000, OEM 0.000000
        rollAngle        = 0.000000,
        cockpit_version    = 0,

 

For the Logitec Extreme 3D Pro, with 4 stick head buttons and a hat:

UL (JOY_BTN5) = "View Center"

UR (JOY_BTN6) = "camera view up slow"

LL (JOY_BTN3) = "view left"

LR (JOY_BTN4) = "view right"

Hat (JOY_BTN_POV1_x) = default pan function

 

This provides:

(UL) Instrument Panel view

(UR) Gunsight view

(LL) Fast Pan - left (over the shoulder from Gunsight view)

(LR) Fast Pan - right (over the shoulder from Gunsight view)

(Hat) Pan - from any view or location

 

By doubling the zoom to this ~ 60º field of view, the inside looks and feels right, and the outside looks right.

 

Full size/full screen views: (Lt click image, then Rt click for image host, then double Lt click for full screen view)

(UL) Instrument Panel view

 

(UR) Gunsight view

 

LL (JOY_BTN3) = "view left" (full pan)

 

(Hat) Pan - from any view or location

 

Should work w/ a head-Tracker as well.

Comments/Concerns/Suggestions welcome.

 

Bowie

Edited December 11 by Bowie

[Doughguy]

You can calculate the correct FOV according to your monitor and distance from monitor to your eye.
Theres some stuff on the web that does that for you if that helps.

[Bowie]

1 hour ago, Doughguy said:

You can calculate the correct FOV according to your monitor and distance from monitor to your eye.
Theres some stuff on the web that does that for you if that helps.

The above settings produce ~ 60° Field of view.

Checked by placing the edge of view on the center-line seam of the cowling, noted a scenic detail on the opposite edge of view, panned to align the initial edge with the scenic detail, and then analyzed how the center of the view lines up with both the parallel wing and perpendicular canopy rail, 90°/(1 + 0.5) = 60°.

 

Should work for any monitor and distance, as one sees what they see, and the brain adjusts accordingly.

 

Bowie

Edited August 5 by Bowie

[Bowie]

Any takers on this?

If a Simulator is what you're about...

 

Bowie

[Rebel28]

The P-51 Mustang canopy frame inside where it latches when it closes is exactly 27 ½ inches. If you are looking for a true FOV judge from that measurement.

[Bowie]

On 8/15/2024 at 3:24 PM, Rebel28 said:

The P-51 Mustang canopy frame inside where it latches when it closes is exactly 27 ½ inches. If you are looking for a true FOV judge from that measurement.

Trivia is like that.

 

The point is - This requires that one points their nose to see a different ~ 60° view window, head on a swivel.

No "game" panorama views.

And it feels 3D, like being inside, not just looking at a picture of something.

Useful detection range is 1.5-2.0 MN, depending on background and lighting.

 

And when you lose a bandit in a knife fight - it requires that you point your nose/maneuver your aircraft to reacquire,

Not just "look over there," but maintaining your 3D situational awareness so that you can extrapolate/maneuver/pan to get then back into view, then drag'em into the gunsight.

Jedi skill.

 

Bowie

 

Edited August 17 by Bowie

[Bowie]

Have recently run the Gamma down from 1.7 to 1.5.

Really likin'it.

The instrument panel is now flat black, instead of what was assumed as gray, and most of the mid-day glare and haze that would obscure and mask aircraft at distance is all but gone.

Even at dawn/dusk, there is more detail of A/C in low light, instead of them disappearing in the shadows.

The lighting appears as a ~ 15 minute shift toward darkness, but otherwise the same, with better detail.

All together a visual win.

 

Bowie

[Bowie]

EDIT:

Adjusted this down to 0.150000.

See following post.

 

Bowie

 

Was getting the feeling that, even though the pilot's "eyeball" is in the correct location, the view was still a tad panoramic, like being in the back seat with the gauges out of reach.

 

Solution: Move the "eyeball" forward, from the OEM 0.120000 to 0.160000.

This equates to only ~ 1.5 inches, but makes a considerable difference.

With Notepad++, open C:/user/"user name"/Saved Games/DCS.openbeta/Config/View/SnapViews.lua.

(make a copy first and rename it. e.g. "SnapViews - OEM.lua"

Find the "P-51D" section/[13]  (mine is row 5192)

Change (copy/paste):

    [13] = {--default view
        viewAngle        = 40.000000,--FOV Cockpit Zoom 40.000000, OEM 80.000000
        viewAngleVertical= 0.000000,--VFOV
        hAngle            = 0.000000,
        vAngle            = -30.000000,-- Cockpit View Angle -30.00000, OEM -9.500000
        x_trans            = 0.160000,-- Cockpit View In_Trans 0.160000, OEM 0.120000
        y_trans            = 0.0600000,-- Cockpit View Up_Trans 0.060000, OEM 0.059000
        z_trans            = 0.000000,-- Cockpit View Rt_Trans 0.000000, OEM 0.000000
        rollAngle        = 0.000000,
        cockpit_version    = 0,

 

This gives a nice "in the cockpit" feel, gauges at arm's reach, and the canopy bow looks substantial.

Gunsight Mil Ring does not change.

Gunsight, Panel, and Oblique views of the new setting:

 

 

Really liking this.

 

Bowie

Edited October 17 by Bowie

[Bowie]

The cockpit at 0.160000 felt a little too tight, and was a little difficult visually to get in and out of in a rolling scissors.

 

Solution: Move the "eyeball" back a little, from 0.160000 to 0.150000.

Not much, but made a noticeable difference.

With Notepad++, open C:/user/"user name"/Saved Games/DCS.openbeta/Config/View/SnapViews.lua.

(make a copy first and rename it. e.g. "SnapViews - OEM.lua"

Find the "P-51D" section/[13]  (mine is row 5192)

Change (copy/paste):

    [13] = {--default view
        viewAngle        = 40.000000,--FOV Cockpit Zoom 40.000000, OEM 80.000000
        viewAngleVertical= 0.000000,--VFOV
        hAngle            = 0.000000,
        vAngle            = -30.000000,-- Cockpit View Angle -30.00000, OEM -9.500000
        x_trans            = 0.150000,-- Cockpit View In_Trans 0.150000, OEM 0.120000
        y_trans            = 0.0600000,-- Cockpit View Up_Trans 0.060000, OEM 0.059000
        z_trans            = 0.000000,-- Cockpit View Rt_Trans 0.000000, OEM 0.000000
        rollAngle        = 0.000000,
        cockpit_version    = 0,

 

The instrument panel still fills the view, and it feels like inside looking down, but not as harsh and dramatic.

Smoother transition between Gunsight/Panel/Outside.

Gunsight, Panel, and Oblique views of the new setting:

 

 

Bowie

[jackd]

Well now i wonder why i ever bought a 4k monitor for this game and scaling it down Seems a total waste of money then ...

[Bowie]

12 hours ago, jackd said:

Well now i wonder why i ever bought a 4k monitor for this game and scaling it down Seems a total waste of money then ...

 

This gives an "in the cockpit" feel, and improved spotting and tracking.

4K 3840x2160.

The detail is outstanding.

 

Bowie

[Bowie]

The External View for this setup:

OPTIONS\SYSTEM\External field of view = 55°

Almost an exact match.

 

Bowie

[Art-J]

All fine and dandy, but the FoV scaling required for "true" size of cockpit seen on the monitor DOES depend strictly on monitor size and distance from user's eyes (and that's the data various online FoV calculators use). Resolution becomes a factor only when target spotting comes into play. Thus, your custom tweaks, although clearly lots of work went into perfecting them, are pretty much irrelevant for anyone who doesn't have exactly the same monitor size plus desk & seat setup as you. 

We know you're using 4K display, but what size is it and how far is it? Might be useful as a reference data for others.

[Doughguy]

There is a page that would take your monitor size and distance from eyes into account to calculate the correct fov.

I had the link somewhere....

[Bowie]

2 hours ago, Art-J said:

All fine and dandy, but the FoV scaling required for "true" size of cockpit seen on the monitor DOES depend strictly on monitor size and distance from user's eyes (and that's the data various online FoV calculators use). Resolution becomes a factor only when target spotting comes into play. Thus, your custom tweaks, although clearly lots of work went into perfecting them, are pretty much irrelevant for anyone who doesn't have exactly the same monitor size plus desk & seat setup as you. 

We know you're using 4K display, but what size is it and how far is it? Might be useful as a reference data for others.

Missing the point.

Scale, not size.

Perspective View... not actual Size.

What the Pilot in the cockpit would see, not what you should see recreating a cockpit at home.

No "arcade" panorama.

 

This is head out the Left side, taxiing, looking back at the panel.

 

Bowie

 

Edited October 28 by Bowie

[Bowie]

An Essential Mod for the P-51D-25, in conjunction w/ the new View configuration:

Authentic_K-14_Gunsight_1.0_by_Magic_Zach

This is simply outstanding.

The gunsight is the focal point of a fighter.

This one is immersive.

Thanks, @Magic Zach

 

Bowie

[_Hoss]

On 8/16/2024 at 5:03 PM, Bowie said:

Trivia is like that.

 

The point is - This requires that one points their nose to see a different ~ 60° view window, head on a swivel.

No "game" panorama views.

And it feels 3D, like being inside, not just looking at a picture of something.

Useful detection range is 1.5-2.0 MN, depending on background and lighting.

 

And when you lose a bandit in a knife fight - it requires that you point your nose/maneuver your aircraft to reacquire,

Not just "look over there," but maintaining your 3D situational awareness so that you can extrapolate/maneuver/pan to get then back into view, then drag'em into the gunsight.

Jedi skill.

 

Bowie

 

OODA Loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. Rinse, Repeat. 

And you need to do it for both Mustangs and the TF-51, in the snap view Lua line section [13].

[DD_Fenrir]

On 10/28/2024 at 5:40 PM, Bowie said:

What the Pilot in the cockpit would see, not what you should see recreating a cockpit at home.

No "arcade" panorama.

Whilst I agree that for objects outside of the cockpit to be rendered to the "correct" scale requires the in game FoV to match the FoV of your own physical monitor/seating position geometry setup, you are neglecting to account for a critical capability of the human eyeball; peripheral vision.

By dismissing "panoramic" views your a denuding yourself of sensor scope of aquisition and hence situational awareness.

The fact is a single plate 2D monitor will forever be a compromise in gaming; you are stuck between "soda straw" option to allow true scale of objects outside of your vehicle or a "fisheye" view that allows for the true range of human visual perception, or a compromise between the two.

Fortunately DCS allows for cockpit camera FoV to be manipulated by a slider so you can, if you have the appropriate hardware, have access to the entire FoV range and choose what is the best balance for you at any one moment.

Ultimately only a high resolution widescreen VR headset and the necessary horsepower to run it will provide both true to life visual scaling and a wide FoV at the same time.

[Lixma 06]

On 10/28/2024 at 5:40 PM, Bowie said:

What the Pilot in the cockpit would see

Only if the pilot was wearing one of these...

In your quest for realism you've sacrificed two vital ingredients on the altar of correct scaling.

1: Peripheral vision

2: Moveable eyeballs

Peripheral vision allows us to be aware of things in a cone of appx. 100° around the centre. Our eyeballs can then swivel to focus on whatever takes our attention - all without moving our head an inch.

But with your scheme we are trapped looking down a rectangular tunnel. If we want to glance at our instruments we need to move our head. If we want to glance to the left we have to move our head. Only owls think this is normal.

So, while adjusting the games FOV to produce the correct scaling initially looks kinda cool, it bears no resemblance to how people actually see things in real life.

 

[Bowie]

On 11/27/2024 at 3:15 AM, Lixma 06 said:

Only if the pilot was wearing one of these...

In your quest for realism you've sacrificed two vital ingredients on the altar of correct scaling.

1: Peripheral vision

2: Moveable eyeballs

Peripheral vision allows us to be aware of things in a cone of appx. 100° around the centre. Our eyeballs can then swivel to focus on whatever takes our attention - all without moving our head an inch.

But with your scheme we are trapped looking down a rectangular tunnel. If we want to glance at our instruments we need to move our head. If we want to glance to the left we have to move our head. Only owls think this is normal.

So, while adjusting the games FOV to produce the correct scaling initially looks kinda cool, it bears no resemblance to how people actually see things in real life.

 

Disagree.

Look at the center of this view, and then tell me if you can read the span gauge on the Mk-14.

You won't see a speck in the sky, either.

One is required to look, or point their nose, at the target to see and track it.

Not perfect, but leaps and bounds ahead of this "arcade" nonsense.

Requires Situational Awareness, and snap view/panning skills.

Am fighting and beating Veteran and Ace skill level Bf 109-G6's in multi-plane combat, usually 12/12 or 16/16.

Absolute fur-balls.

Head-on-a-swivel is the only way to survive.

But, with the improved view, spotting/tracking is possible out past a mile.

And no cheats, like zoom/map/labels.

Just pilot skill and the Mk.I eyeball.

 

Bowie

 

[Weta43]

Yes, a tighter FOV is more convincing.

I've been playing for the last few months with a 43" 4k monitor in portrait mode & everything life sized.

(in that I have one of those clocks, and I have the screen about as far away as the end of my arm, with the zoom set so the clock on screen is the same size as the real one sitting at the same distance.)

The cockpit's life-sized, and so is everything outside.

Everything looks very natural, I can see the gages and outside at the same time, and spotting is a lot better...

Edited November 29 by Weta43

[DD_Fenrir]

2 hours ago, Bowie said:

Disagree.

Look at the center of this view, and then tell me if you can read the span gauge on the Mk-14.

You won't see a speck in the sky, either.

One is required to look, or point their nose, at the target to see and track it.

Not perfect, but leaps and bounds ahead of this "arcade" nonsense.

Requires Situational Awareness, and snap view/panning skills.

Am fighting and beating Veteran and Ace skill level Bf 109-G6's in multi-plane combat, usually 12/12 or 16/16.

Absolute fur-balls.

Head-on-a-swivel is the only way to survive.

But, with the improved view, spotting/tracking is possible out past a mile.

And no cheats, like zoom/map/labels.

Just pilot skill and the Mk.I eyeball.

 

Bowie

 

Wow.

It’s this kind of pig ignorance that reminds me why that the world is as messed up as it is.

Nice attitude by the way.

I particularly like the way you think this makes you some kind of leet operator and somehow better than everyone, when in reality what’s actually happened is that you have biblically failed to understand some fairly basic and intrinsic properties regarding lenses and field of views.

But I guess being “right” and feeling superior to everyone else is more important to you than actually understanding something.

 

 

[Lixma 06]

Careful, Fen - he's got a knife.

[Gunfreak]

[Bowie]

On 11/28/2024 at 11:04 PM, DD_Fenrir said:

Wow.

It’s this kind of pig ignorance that reminds me why that the world is as messed up as it is.

Nice attitude by the way.

I particularly like the way you think this makes you some kind of leet operator and somehow better than everyone, when in reality what’s actually happened is that you have biblically failed to understand some fairly basic and intrinsic properties regarding lenses and field of views.

But I guess being “right” and feeling superior to everyone else is more important to you than actually understanding something.

 

 

No, actually.

It is you who have failed to understand the difference between Scale and Perspective.

But don't let that interfere with your pantie-bunch.

Enjoy.

 

Bowie