A/G weapons on other Russian birds

[Giantsfan24]

Not being very familiar with the level of fidelity of other Russian ground attack helos/planes(Mi-24/Su-25,Mi-28 etc), do all of them use the spiraling Vikhr or a more linear type a/g munition like the American's employ?

 

Also, while on the subject, why did the Russians choose to employ a spiraling missle especially in a ground attack role with the very real possibility of contacting the ground before target impact? Thnx

Edited May 25, 2009 by Giantsfan24

[159th_Viper]

 

Also, while on the subject, why did the Russians choose to employ a spiraling missle especially in a ground attack role with the very real possibility of contacting the ground before target impact? Thnx

 

Hazarding a guess here: Cost.......Vikhr 'comparatively Cheap' and when deployed correctly, Brutally Effective. Personally never experienced 'Ground Impact' in SIM so cannot comment on that.

[KrUEgER888]

They spiral only in the beginning. If you keep your distance and hight they should almost fly straight at the end of their trajectory.

[fox_111]

I'd say it's all about cost. The whole russian army seam to be based on cost and reliability, compared to US based on quality and speciality.

 

I did have some missed shots witht the Vikhr due to the spiraling effect, but it was only because I did not have a good aproach on my target I guess.

[joey45]

from what I know [which isn't alot] they are no longer being made and that they are being replaced....

 

mind you that i hve just polished off a bottle of white..

[Giantsfan24]

I wasn't puting down the russian weapon's system mind you. It seams that you guys are correct. Even though the KA-50 debuted during the declining years of the cold war, you could see the possibility of mass production. I mean how many countries used the Mi-24? It seams Russian has always lived by the motto "we can't beat them in quality, but we can beat them in quantity". Sad to say WW2 for a tragic example of this.

 

But, another way to look at it is Russia is the biggest(by size) country on earth. The need alot individual military units compared to say a country like Israel, which has far less border to defend.

[EtherealN]

Aye, and on the comparison with Israel it should be noted that their borders are not only small - they are also borderline impossible to defend with very little in the way of naturally defensive terrain. This is one of the reasons they are so adamant about not giving up areas like the Golan and West Bank. In the former they would be without any defensible terrain before the lake that grants them ~75% of their fresh water, in the latter they would have mere kilometres to major metropolitan areas.

 

Under those circumstances, the weapons they have absolutely have to be very very effective, since absorbing an attack through a deep defence is pretty much impossible. Their weapons have to be an absolute wall.

 

Russia, on the other hand, has always been able to count on it's terrain - both the size of it and natural defences. This enables their defensive thinking to include absorption through a deep defence and, once absorbed, a massive counterattack. I'm less read on their offensive strategies though, but having the numbers would allow things like opening a wide enough front to probe enemy defences and once a weaker area has been found - pour in the reserves there.

 

And it should also be mentioned that this kind of mass production is something they are ruthlessly good at. In the early 50's there was something like 200 "front-line" top quality fighters like the Sabre on the east-west border in europe, whereas the Mig-15 count (a very good plane) on that border was well into four figures. Whenever the Soviets have found something that works real well it doesn't take long at all for it to be mass produced in ways that frankly boggle the mind.

 

My own fav example from anecdotal evidence in World War 2 was T34 production in battle areas, where they would build new tanks when the front line was literally at the factory walls. (I'm not sure whether those anecdotes have been confirmed though.)

 

We should also remember that a lot of modern Russian equipment have qualities that we in the west very often simply forget. For example, the early Mig29's might not have been entirely competitive in avionics, but they could take off from really rough airfields thanks to some really genious inventions. That means even "successful" airfield denial strikes might end up denying them nothing.

 

On the note of the ATGM's specifically, I am fairly sure the Ka-52 uses the Ataka instead of the Vikhr, but I am unsure of what the flight behaviour of the Ataka is. (My only experience of it is arcadey sims like Apache vs Havoc.) So rest assured the Hokum legend is being carried on with more modern equipment, something that I am really thankful to the russian MOD for. Having a creation like the 50/52 line of aircraft and not keeping at least one up-to-date would be such a shame.

[TangoRomeo]

It seams Russian has always lived by the motto "we can't beat them in quality, but we can beat them in quantity". Sad to say WW2 for a tragic example of this.

 

When talking about WW2 and mass production, the first country most people would think of is the US.

While russian Workmanship may look shoddy at times, and they certainly bled out financially during the cold war - i wouldn't underestimate their capabilities in the R&D sector however. They always had some surprises up their sleeve, be it the introduction of the T-34 during WW2, the IRST/HMS combo on the MIG-29 or the Shkval torpedo.

[EtherealN]

or the Shkval torpedo.

 

That thing is just amazing. Found it when doing a bit of fact-searching for the Shkval in the Su-25T and Ka-50, and boy was that a cool piece of kit.

[arneh]

On the note of the ATGM's specifically, I am fairly sure the Ka-52 uses the Ataka instead of the Vikhr, but I am unsure of what the flight behaviour of the Ataka is.

 

No, the Ka-52 carries the Vikhr(AT-16) too. But the Mi-28 uses the Ataka (AT-9), as does the newer Mi-24 models (Mi-24PN, Mi-35M).

 

The Ataka is a development of the older Shturm (AT-6) missile used on most Mi-24s. Both are radio command guided (guided by the antenna in the characteristic nose of the Mi-28, or under the left side of the nose on the Mi-24) and has a normal straight flight path.

[sobek]

[...]and has a normal straight flight path.

 

I read that the ataka flys over the line of sight and drops down shortly before impact.

[EvilBivol-1]

arneh, you must have missed the latest developments with the Ka-52. ;) Ironically enough, it seems like it is now being "groomed" for the Ataka.

http://pilot.strizhi.info/2009/05/21/6676

[EtherealN]

Indeed, would appear you are correct, Arneh. I had a source saying it could use both, but warfare.ru lists only the Vikhr for the 52. My bad.

 

EDIT: And I barely have time to type that before EB1 comes along and finds other pictures that I hadn't managed to find again. So em, okey, it once again appears like it can use both.

[sobek]

arneh, you must have missed the latest developments with the Ka-52. ;) Ironically enough, it seems like it is now being "groomed" for the Ataka.

http://pilot.strizhi.info/2009/05/21/6676

 

Those domes must make belly landings quite expensive, strange design choice to mount such costly equipment under the nose.

[arneh]

I read that the ataka flys over the line of sight and drops down shortly before impact.

 

 

From what I understand it climbs a few meters right after launch, and then flies straight to target. But it's just a few meters to clear immediate obstacles, it's nothing like the Hellfire profile, and it won't hit the target from the top.

 

arneh, you must have missed the latest developments with the Ka-52. ;) Ironically enough, it seems like it is now being "groomed" for the Ataka.

 

Interesting hadn't seen that. Seems it's only a few days old :) Though as usual with Russian hardware one airshow model with dummy weapons doesn't really mean it can use it yet, or that it will ever be put in service like that :) That one seems to have a ton of other new sensors too, so I suspect it's mostly Kamov showing off what they're capable of putting on the thing if they get a customer interested.

 

But still interesting, thanks for showing me!

[EvilBivol-1]

Unfortunately not. It seems like the Russian military is trying to unify the Mi-28N with the Ka-52 as much as possible, so the Ka-52 is being "downgraded" to use the Ataka missiles. This has been seen for some months now. See here:

http://pilot.strizhi.info/2009/03/06/6353

 

Besides, the word online is that both the Shkval and Vikhr are no longer produced. That Ka-52 (063) is the latest prototype and is about to enter state evaluation trials, so it's completely official.

[arneh]

Unfortunately not. It seems like the Russian military is trying to unify the Mi-28N with the Ka-52 as much as possible, so the Ka-52 is being "downgraded" to use the Ataka missiles.

 

 

Well it makes sense. Since they're building so few Ka-52s it's going to be expensive anyway, so at least to make it somewhat cheaper by at least not having it use a weapon system no one else uses.

Though I did notice it had Vikhrs in the first image, but Ataka in the second. So it seems to have tested both.

 

That Ka-52 (063) is the latest prototype and is about to enter state evaluation trials, so it's completely official.

 

Ok, thanks for info :)

[rrohde]

On a side note, that Mi-28 looks like a mean fighting machine - time for ED to dedicate a module for DCS to it... ;)

 

Radar, nightvision, et al... fantastic beast.

 

[goldfinger35]

I'd say it's all about cost. The whole russian army seam to be based on cost and reliability, compared to US based on quality and speciality.

 

 

Every army in the world tries to make a good balance of quality and cost, even the US army. No army in the world uses best quality weapons and equipment that can be produced (except maybe some equipment for some special forces units).

Example: US army/marines use M16A4 as a standard assault rifle and it is not the best in the world / the best they can produce.

US Marines use Cobra helipcoter because it is good enough etc.

 

It is all about the cost.

[TangoRomeo]

The lowest bidder usually gets the contract.

[joey45]

I do luv the Havoc..

[Like A Wasp But With Guns]

I do luv the Havoc..

 

Me too. Just looks fantastic... so evil.

 

Although, saying that, the Mi-35 has got to be one of the most amazing-looking things man has ever made.

[Boberro]

Shouldn't Ka-52 (and Mi-28) use Hermes missiles? When will they finally develop this missile? From specs it seems it's much better than Ataka.

 

http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/multi/hermesa.htm