DCS Players Have Had Enough - A youtubers opinion

[Aapje]

What I know is that the more code/modules are in a project, the more work it is to maintain everything. And it's worse when the platform is getting changed, since that tends to require fixes in other code/modules. And the state of the art moves on too, so older modules either fall out of favor or need to be brought up to modern standards. But if modules will not generate enough sales if you bring them up to the state of the art, but you also can't abandon them, because the people who bought them expect to be able to keep using them, then the project will forever have modules that cost effort to maintain, but have low sales and reflect poorly on the product.

So I have a hard time seeing it as a sustainable model to keep making modules, creating more and more work in maintenance and making it harder and harder to improve the game engine, without causing tons of rework in existing modules. Then the project is likely to run out of developers to maintain the standards they started with and certain features will never be implemented, because they require an excessive amount of (re)work.

There is a reason why certain competitor products are releasing new game engines, either leaving old content behind on the old engine, or demoting old content to second tier status, and adding ways to get income from upgrading old modules.

I personally think that a pivot will need to be made in the next few years, in a way that will anger many people, but that is needed for the long-term viability of DCS.

[jackd]

Well, that maybe, but it already puts me off buying more modules especially when expensive or as pre-release .... sorry for all the hard work done by the developers.

Normandy as example: i bought Channel and Normandy, then 2.0, it works sort off, but it never feels it's been looked at that much for bugs, map fixes etc. 

Let alone for still missing historic essentials.

[LuseKofte]

I am kind of inbetween all this. I find a lot of the critique very understandable. At the same time I dont like the hostile tone in many of them. 

I read bad things and agree with them, those with understanding of this software and take a calm subjective analyse of it I totaly respect.

The hostile ED need to get punished posts and siding to any part in juridical issues I find rather childish and barely read. When some from ED side answer, I find their answers very balanced and honest

[jackd]

Maybe you are right, the whole DCS is quit a complex beast to keep under control after all.

[Dangerzone]

1 hour ago, jackd said:

Maybe you are right, the whole DCS is quit a complex beast to keep under control after all.

So are many of it's users. 

[Creampie]

On 10/27/2024 at 2:39 PM, NineLine said:

2. Believe it or not, single-player is still a very big part of DCS, MP has grown and we are happy about that, but even Syria went through a period where no one was going to play it because everything was set up for older maps

 

 

SP & MP both are just like many other comments stated seemingly left without polishing.

I think one of the biggest drawbacks to both are server sided mod support. Just like every other game in the world, you join a server that has mods, the mods install.

With the absolute lack of eastern aircraft in a FF manner some of these mods help fill a gap that seems to never talked about.. Now I know that if every server could add every single mod it would essentially hurt cash flow. But the light for future red aircraft is extremely dim. I know there are incredible complications and a rigorous checklists in order for a module to be made or considered, there has to be something other than the JF-17 (that ED seems to want to neuter) that can be implemented. 

Not to mention being able to implement things that the legendary @currenthill has made for this community without being a massive struggle for a MP server made for more than just a group of friends. 

The seemingly never going to happen aside; 

I think there are a ton of QOL updates the community is just itching for with no actual road map ahead.

[sirrah]

52 minutes ago, Creampie said:

I think one of the biggest drawbacks to both are server sided mod support. Just like every other game in the world, you join a server that has mods, the mods install.

Are you indicating you'd like DCS to automatically download and install mods when you join some random server?

Or did I misunderstood that?

[Creampie]

2 hours ago, sirrah said:

Are you indicating you'd like DCS to automatically download and install mods when you join some random server?

Or did I misunderstood that?

 

No, you understood it correctly.

Just like every other sandbox out there, DayZ, Arma etc 

[SharpeXB]

10 hours ago, Creampie said:

I think one of the biggest drawbacks to both are server sided mod support. Just like every other game in the world, you join a server that has mods, the mods install.

Huh? We do not want servers automatically installing unofficial mods onto our machines! These cause a lot of trouble in DCS

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

30 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Huh? We do not want servers automatically installing unofficial mods onto our machines! These cause a lot of trouble in DCS

Yeah, holy hell, no thanks. Besides, it's not exactly hard to do it on your own. The most annoying thing about MP in Half-Life games was bloated admin mods of 400-500mb of garbage soundclips.

The last thing we NEED is that equivalent here in DCS, but with 3-4gb files.

Also, ArmA doesn't make you automatically download mods. You can share a modlist, but not auto-download mods. At least in 3, dunno about Reforger or DayZ. At anyrate, you're dropping files into mod folders made ready by the devs, that is not a great difficulty.

[Creampie]

9 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Yeah, holy hell, no thanks. Besides, it's not exactly hard to do it on your own. The most annoying thing about MP in Half-Life games was bloated admin mods of 400-500mb of garbage soundclips.

The last thing we NEED is that equivalent here in DCS, but with 3-4gb files.

Also, ArmA doesn't make you automatically download mods. You can share a modlist, but not auto-download mods. At least in 3, dunno about Reforger or DayZ. At anyrate, you're dropping files into mod folders made ready by the devs, that is not a great difficulty.

To join any multiplayer server with mods  you 100% download them when you go to join the server, in every other game. This is not an abnormal thing for most games with mod support.

Edited November 10, 2024 by Creampie

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Creampie said:

To join any multiplayer server with mods  you 100% download them when you go to join the server, in every other game. This is not an abnormal thing for most games with mod support.

I think you are missing the fact that DCS unofficial mods are unofficial. They aren’t tested with the game builds nor created with use of the SDK. Bottom line they can cause a lot of problems and are best avoided if you want the game to run well. Hardly anyone would want these downloaded into their game automatically. And very few servers use unofficial mods.

Edited November 10, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Creampie]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I think you are missing the fact that DCS unofficial mods are unofficial. They aren’t tested with the game builds nor created with use of the SDK. Bottom line they can cause a lot of problems and are best avoided if you want the game to run well. Hardly anyone would want these downloaded into their game automatically. And very few servers use unofficial mods.

 

Again... A perfect example is the currenthill stuff.... something people want to use and would add a lot of options for SP & MP with no real hassle.

Most games who allow mod support in fact make their games better, Because like ED they need that help.

Modding communities for the above games have not only excelled those games & kept their head above water  they when an update to the build comes, they adjust accordingly.

You join a server, it shows you the list of mods the server uses, If you don't want them to install, you don't join the server. 

But instead, we live in the stone age, Each individual player has to manually find and install the mods themselves rather than giving the option for it to be automatic, under user discretion.

Say for example if one of the bigger MP servers wanted to use 1 asset from currenthill or any mod creator for that matter, each player has to install them, hope they did it correctly, Closing the door for it even being an option for servers trying to have a MP base.

It's really not some miracle work for fixing the game but it will certainly open a lot of doors for it & it's really not even asking a lot or putting people at any sort of risk.

Very few servers use unofficial mods, because it in its current state is extremely bad.

 

[SharpeXB]

47 minutes ago, Creampie said:

Again... A perfect example is the currenthill stuff.... something people want to use and would add a lot of options for SP & MP with no real hassle.

Most games who allow mod support in fact make their games better, Because like ED they need that help.

Modding communities for the above games have not only excelled those games & kept their head above water  they when an update to the build comes, they adjust accordingly.

You join a server, it shows you the list of mods the server uses, If you don't want them to install, you don't join the server. 

But instead, we live in the stone age, Each individual player has to manually find and install the mods themselves rather than giving the option for it to be automatic, under user discretion.

Say for example if one of the bigger MP servers wanted to use 1 asset from currenthill or any mod creator for that matter, each player has to install them, hope they did it correctly, Closing the door for it even being an option for servers trying to have a MP base.

It's really not some miracle work for fixing the game but it will certainly open a lot of doors for it & it's really not even asking a lot or putting people at any sort of risk.

Very few servers use unofficial mods, because it in its current state is extremely bad.

 

You keep missing the point that unofficial mods cause problems in DCS because they’re not tested. Most people aren’t going to want to use them no matter what the “benefit” might be. And that’s why very few severs would ask players to download them. They’re just going to screw up your game and cause you a big headache. 

[Creampie]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

You keep missing the point that unofficial mods cause problems in DCS because they’re not tested. Most people aren’t going to want to use them no matter what the “benefit” might be. And that’s why very few severs would ask players to download them. They’re just going to screw up your game and cause you a big headache. 

 

It's not up to ED for unofficial mods to work.

It is up to the mod creator for them to work on new builds & keep them updated.

It is up to the server owner to decide what mods are best for their server & which are most likely to break when a new build is released. 

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here, but the point seems pretty misunderstood.

All I am trying to say is mod support that could be extremely beneficial to not only ED, but its community, it's non-existent here.

 

Again...

Obviously every mod can't be accepted for use by ED as it could have implications on people actually buying modules.

[LucShep]

13 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Yeah, holy hell, no thanks. Besides, it's not exactly hard to do it on your own. The most annoying thing about MP in Half-Life games was bloated admin mods of 400-500mb of garbage soundclips.

The last thing we NEED is that equivalent here in DCS, but with 3-4gb files.

Also, ArmA doesn't make you automatically download mods. You can share a modlist, but not auto-download mods. At least in 3, dunno about Reforger or DayZ. At anyrate, you're dropping files into mod folders made ready by the devs, that is not a great difficulty.

Absolutely.

It's the job of the server host to warn about and provide the list of mods (and respective version) that is in use in that server session.
The rest is up to people.

...just imagine joining a server that has various DCS aircrafts mods AND assets packs AND terrain textures mod AND liveries.....(list goes on) 

With autodownload we'd be talking about possibly various gigabytes of mods.
And possible conflicts with other similar mods covering same aspects that you might actually prefer and/or already have instaled.
Not to mention the obvious ammount of waiting time lost with such process. 

It's been done in some RTS and FPS games but makes no sense at all for DCS.

Edited November 10, 2024 by LucShep

[Creampie]

1 hour ago, Creampie said:

 

You join a server, it shows you the list of mods the server uses, If you don't want them to install, you don't join the server. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Absolutely.

It's the job of the server host to warn about and provide the list of mods (and respective version) that is in use in that server session.
The rest is up to people.

...just imagine joining a server that has various DCS aircrafts mods AND assets packs AND terrain textures mod AND liveries.....(list goes on) 

With autodownload we'd be talking about possibly various gigabytes of mods.
And possible conflicts with other similar mods covering same aspects that you might actually prefer and/or already have instaled.
Not to mention the obvious ammount of waiting time lost with such process. 

It's been done in some RTS and FPS games but makes no sense at all for DCS.

 

 

???

[LucShep]

Just now, Creampie said:

 

 

???

??? + infinite   (I win? )
 

[Creampie]

Just now, LucShep said:

??? + infinite   (I win? )
 

No win!

 

[SharpeXB]

43 minutes ago, Creampie said:

 

It's not up to ED for unofficial mods to work.

It is up to the mod creator for them to work on new builds & keep them updated.

It is up to the server owner to decide what mods are best for their server & which are most likely to break when a new build is released. 

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here, but the point seems pretty misunderstood.

All I am trying to say is mod support that could be extremely beneficial to not only ED, but its community, it's non-existent here.

 

Again...

Obviously every mod can't be accepted for use by ED as it could have implications on people actually buying modules.

You don’t seem to understand anything about unofficial mods in DCS. Again the fact that they’re made without the SDK or the ability to test them with a preview build of the game or any internal testing by ED meant they’re inherently problematic. Even if they might seem worthwhile superficially, they have the potential to cause all sorts of bugs and problems. This is why very few servers use them. 

Edited November 10, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Creampie]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You don’t seem to understand anything about unofficial mods in DCS. Again the fact that they’re made without the SDK or the ability to test them with a preview build of the game or any internal testing by ED meant they’re inherently problematic. Even if they might seem worthwhile superficially, they have the potential to cause all sorts of bugs and problems. This is why very few servers use them.

 

I don't exactly feel like repeating myself anymore, But I will speak to a wall once more..

You are not opening a door to alter a game outside of the server owners discretion to magically alter a game.

Server owners do not use mods like current hill because for the 14th time,

There is absolutely ZERO support for them.

No server owner wants to have some hyper complex process (for the majority of people) of finding the server, then finding their discord, downloading their mods, hoping you did it correctly. Most people will just get discouraged and turn away.

What is so complex to understand? 

This is just wanting to add support for mods that have things they would like to use in their servers without having to go through a single process besides the person joining and deciding if they want to have the mods or not via prompt.

 

[Lau]

Part of the below message also apply to justify the general discontent that I share with other EDs customers.

3 minutes ago, Lau said:

@cfrag Not necessarily replying to your message, just quoted it from a rhetorical point.

 

Thanks for your passion and support, what a bad joke !

If ED is unable to steer their business and fulfill their commitments, there cannot be anyone else to blame but ED. As a customer, I certainly did my part with almost 1000€ of support and that is only from one customer. Have a look at our signatures and the average number of modules owned by each customer and you will start to have a indication of how much money poured from our pockets to ED, all on the basis of trust, passion and support.

ED has been surfing over our passion and it is now trying some sort of poor excuse to justify the delay or even why things did not happen this far as advertised.

Everyone of EDs messages keeps us believing that things are slow but that they will eventually happen, that products will not be abandoned. ED keeps on making promises and we keep on trusting but, make no mistake, at the first glance that theses promises will not be respected, I will stop pumping money their way and hope for competition to take over all the passion that has been neglected for so long by a business model that makes very little sense to me from a customer point of view.

ED advertises products and prices them, people like me and you buy them, ED delivers what they sold, simple as that. I want no part in this Early Access excuses and do not care how the software industry runs or what ED needs to do in order to fulfill their legal and moral contract with us.

“Oh but you know this things are complex and take time”

“WW2 team is small”

Bla, bla, bla… !

I have been around long enough to have a good understanding of my relationship with ED, reported enough bugs that received no attention and dragged forever before being fixed, yet to be broken again, purchased a wide range of products from both ED and 3^rd party developers to see what is real support and what is lack of support all around, read about the Hawk fiasco and lived through the F15E one.

I am no fool and by reading the other customers many messages on this very forum and beyond in social network I share their discontent.

At this stage the only things that keep me interested in this forum is my passion for aviation and the will to see ED fulfill their part of the legal and moral contract but also, to witness the outcome of a company that will prevail or disappear with not only my investment but more importantly, with the trust that was requested of me over so many years.

Since we are on the Mossie thread, I would like to remember everyone that some of us paid the EA price for a plane that spent most of its time in the hangar with suspension, flight model, artificial horizon problems. Reflected simulation wrote that he would stop all work related to this aircraft while these problems remain and that was already in another life far, far away.

To anyone trying to make us believe the contrary of what I wrote, good luck!

Only results matter now, as a seasoned ED customer, I know what a finished module, a development milestone (e.g. MT), a DCS Core running smoothly mean and that is the only thing I am expecting from ED and couldn’t care less for the many excuses trying to disguise a failure and a lie.

Thanks,

[Bounti30]

I hadn't read this post until now and there are a lot of interesting ideas.
But I believe we are at a crossroads.
Many, like me, are tired of the directions DCS is taking. (spotting dots, loss of performance, VRAM usage, etc...)
ED is only here because we spend our money on our favorite simulator and it's the only one.
If this were to change...

[MAXsenna]

6 hours ago, Creampie said:

I don't exactly feel like repeating myself anymore, But I will speak to a wall once more..

We understood you the first time. 

6 hours ago, Creampie said:

You are not opening a door to alter a game outside of the server owners discretion to magically alter a game.

Do you trust every admin? Are these only Saved Games mods, or core too? You see, certain Core mods can open up for exploitation!

6 hours ago, Creampie said:

No server owner wants to have some hyper complex process (for the majority of people) of finding the server, then finding their discord, downloading their mods, hoping you did it correctly. Most people will just get discouraged and turn away.

This can already be done by admin. They'd probably need permissions by the mods creator. Open Mod Manager, (successor to OvGME, which also supports this), supports Web repositories. I know some admin already host required mods this way. 

I do agree that mods support should be embraced by ED, with an official mod/livery manager. We as a community asked for the Launcher. We got it. So who knows what it will evolve to? 

Haven't touch ARMA for a while. I'm positive it didn't just download mods without asking first. 

6 hours ago, Creampie said:

What is so complex to understand? 

None, we got you the first time. You on the other hand... 

6 hours ago, Creampie said:

have the mods or not via prompt.

You didn't quite write this initially in the first post. And when people asked about, you still didn't. That's why people called you on it and "didn't understand". 

8 hours ago, Creampie said:

You join a server, it shows you the list of mods the server uses, If you don't want them to install, you don't join the server. 

You wrote this in your 4th post. That's why people asked. 

You even wrote this:

11 hours ago, Creampie said:

To join any multiplayer server with mods  you 100% download them when you go to join the server, in every other game. This is not an abnormal thing for most games with mod support.

See now? Words matter!

And I repeat. I agree we need better mods support. And it would make DCS a better game!

Cheers! 

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, Creampie said:

There is absolutely ZERO support for them.

Sure there is. DCS is open to modding. There is a user files section for these on the official website and a forum section. You’re confusing unofficial mods with licensed third party content. And DCS has a great amount of that. 

8 hours ago, Creampie said:

No server owner wants to have some hyper complex process (for the majority of people) of finding the server, then finding their discord, downloading their mods, hoping you did it correctly. Most people will just get discouraged and turn away.

Besides this difficulty the chief reason people avoid unofficial mods is the problems they can create. Having easy access to these doesn’t solve that issue. Most players aren’t going to want to use these no matter how easy the access is. 

Edited November 10, 2024 by SharpeXB