missing info SA-8 Engaging Glide Weapons

[Whiskey11]

I don't have a track for this because it occurred in a Multiplayer event and occurred towards the end of a nearly hour and a half long mission.  HOWEVER, the SA-8 has acquired the ability to engage the GB-6 glide bomb from the JF-17.  It does hit and kill the glide bomb.

 

I don't personally own the JF-17, so I can't give you a track either =|

[razo+r]

2 hours ago, Whiskey11 said:

I don't have a track for this because it occurred in a Multiplayer event and occurred towards the end of a nearly hour and a half long mission.  HOWEVER, the SA-8 has acquired the ability to engage the GB-6 glide bomb from the JF-17.  It does hit and kill the glide bomb.

 

I don't personally own the JF-17, so I can't give you a track either =|

Just place an AI JF-17 and a SA-8 in a mission and let it drop a bomb. You don't need to own the Module for that.

And what exactly is the problem you want to report? Is it the fact that the Osa can shoot down glide bombs? Why should it not be able to engage big and slow bombs?

Edited October 30, 2024 by razo+r

[Gierasimov]

This is by design and not a bug as far as DCS is concerned. 

DCS divides weapons into bombs and missiles, in DCS bombs cannot be detected by SAM systems whereas missiles can, all glide weapons are considered missiles from the DCS standpoint and therefore can be detected, engaged and destroyed by SAM systems (as well as AAA). 

It has been like that since I remember (years). 

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[razo+r]

3 minutes ago, Gierasimov said:

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This is by design and not a bug as far as DCS is concerned. 

DCS divides weapons into bombs and missiles, in DCS bombs cannot be detected by SAM systems whereas missiles can, all glide weapons are considered missiles from the DCS standpoint and therefore can be detected, engaged and destroyed by SAM systems (as well as AAA). 

It has been like that since I remember (years). 

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That changed in a "recent" patch. Now bombs can also be targeted.

[Gierasimov]

I just tried in single player and SA-8 did not engage LS-6-500 at all but SA-15 did without any problem.

 

[Whiskey11]

14 hours ago, razo+r said:

Just place an AI JF-17 and a SA-8 in a mission and let it drop a bomb. You don't need to own the Module for that.

And what exactly is the problem you want to report? Is it the fact that the Osa can shoot down glide bombs? Why should it not be able to engage big and slow bombs?

 

The problem is a system with no point defense capability suddenly has point defense capability. This is an old command guided system engaging a low observable munition it has never been able to engage in the past in the game. If it's intended then cool, I'll have to update my Kneeboard, but the variant we have is from the early 1970s using a command guided missile (this is significant for a number of reasons). I doubt highly this is an intended change. 

 

Finding data cards on the 1S51M3-2 "Land Roll" radar which show radar sensitivity isn't easy. I just know that since the "bombs can be engaged" patch, this is the first time I've seen an SA-8 engage any incoming munitions. It happened twice in one mission. 

[Northstar98]

I mean, so long as the radar can track the target and the missile (or alternatively, the operators can track the target manually with the 9Sh38) it can engage anything that's within the missile's capability to hit (though in any case, engaging low-observable weapons, even those with a low LOS rate is quite the ask for the operators to acquire).

 

1 hour ago, Whiskey11 said:

but the variant we have is from the early 1970s

FWIW, and it really is a pedantic hang up as I guess it doesn't make much practical difference (after all, the sensors and FCS are the same AFAIK, the missiles are the main change), but the SA-8 variant from the early 70s looked like this:

 

Our one has a missile with 9M33M3 written on the side of it, meaning we should have the 9K33M3 Osa-AKM [SA-8B Gecko Mod 1], which is from 1980. This also tracks with the IFF interrogation antenna atop the SOC antenna, which is a more frequent configuration compared to previous versions.

[Gierasimov]

@Whiskey11 are you able to reproduce this? Post a track if so. 

I tried with JF-17 and with Hornet, glide bombs are not engaged by SA-8 in my tests. 

I tried several SAM / AAA systems and only SA-15 and SA-10 seem to engage glide bombs. 

There is also 'Engage aerial weapons' waypoint advanced task that can be set to off (it is on by default). Could be used to control SAM engagement rules if needed too. 

Edited October 31, 2024 by Gierasimov

[NineLine]

Need a track, thanks. 

[Whiskey11]

On 10/31/2024 at 3:10 AM, Gierasimov said:

@Whiskey11 are you able to reproduce this? Post a track if so. 

I tried with JF-17 and with Hornet, glide bombs are not engaged by SA-8 in my tests. 

I tried several SAM / AAA systems and only SA-15 and SA-10 seem to engage glide bombs. 

There is also 'Engage aerial weapons' waypoint advanced task that can be set to off (it is on by default). Could be used to control SAM engagement rules if needed too. 

 

I haven't been able to play DCS since this occurred. Hopefully Monday I'll have time to dig into it further. 

[Whiskey11]

On 11/5/2024 at 5:33 PM, NineLine said:

Need a track, thanks. 

Here you go.

SA8PointDefense.trk dcs.log

[Whiskey11]

This is still a thing in the current version.  Played a Retribution Campaign mission with my squadron and an SA-8 intercepted a Tomahawk.  No track file, since multiplayer and massive mission, but the two above should work.

[norman99]

I confirm, the SA-8 can intercept cruise missiles, AGM-86, AGM-84E etc, etc. I have never found any literature that even remotely hints at the SA-8 having this capability.

Furthermore, the AGM-86/BGM-109 was one of the primary reasons for the development of the SA-10/S-300 and SA-15 systems, as they rendered the SA-5 a sitting duck. If protecting their primary long range SAMs from cruise missiles was as simple as parking a few SA-8s around them, they would have.

[Northstar98]

On 1/4/2025 at 5:41 AM, norman99 said:

I confirm, the SA-8 can intercept cruise missiles, AGM-86, AGM-84E etc, etc. I have never found any literature that even remotely hints at the SA-8 having this capability.

Well, there is a level of absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the SA-N-4 (essentially a navalised SA-8, but using the exact same missiles) does have limited capability against cruise missiles.

If it's able to detect and acquire cruise missiles within the engagement zone of the missile, I can't see why it shouldn't be able to engage them, especially with low line-of-sight rates. If we can source some figures on expected detection distances against whatever RCS target, we should be able to determine when it might be able to detect a cruise missile.

However, this'll probably depend on the operators, optical tracking is completely manual and as for the radar, acquisition is done via a fairly manual process.

On 1/4/2025 at 5:41 AM, norman99 said:

If protecting their primary long range SAMs from cruise missiles was as simple as parking a few SA-8s around them, they would have.

Not quite, because the majority long-range SAMs are all PVO systems, whereas the SA-8 is a PVO-SV system which falls under the ground forces (army), so it would've been protecting mobile systems like the SA-4, -6 and -11. The only "long-range" PVO-SV systems were/are the SA-11 and 12.