Mod manager Integration in new DCS launcher

[T24_Martin]

Hello, 

I really like the new launcher! It is excellent to manage all the stuff outside of the game in a nice looking GUI.

Is it possible to integrate a native mod manager?

I just want to start using some user made campaigns and skins and it is so much cool stuff out there, why not managing all from one source?

[SharpeXB]

Check out the Downloads / User Files section on the DCS website. That will have what you’re looking for. 

Edited November 19, 2024 by SharpeXB

[T24_Martin]

Thanks! I know! I just ask for an mod manager integration onto the new DCS launcher. So that I do NAT have to have a separate mod manager to manage the files.

[Rudel_chw]

18 minutes ago, T24_Martin said:

I just ask for an mod manager integration onto the new DCS launcher. So that I do NAT have to have a separate mod manager to manage the files.

 

A problem with that wish is that if ED were to incorporate it on the base game, then people that run into problems when loading a Mod would clog-up the support center ... it is better to have Mods clearly separated, so that users understand that they can use Mods "as is" and dont expect tech support for those.

[SharpeXB]

Unofficial mods are a chief source of bugs and problems. Putting a direct line to them in the launcher has the potential to just flood ED and Partners with bug reports. I’m sure they need to balance the appeal these add with the extra work they can add. There is confusion too among players what mods even are. For example user created skins or missions technically aren’t “mods”. But unofficial aircraft modules and 3D objects are. Such a link in the launcher just adds to the confusion.

I’m not sure what a mod manager is even supposed to do but it shouldn’t be ED’s job to manage these. 

Edited November 20, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Tank50us]

17 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Unofficial mods are a chief source of bugs and problems. Putting a direct line to them in the launcher has the potential to just flood ED and Partners with bug reports. I’m sure they need to balance the appeal these add with the extra work they can add. There is confusion too among players what mods even are. For example user created skins or missions technically aren’t “mods”. But unofficial aircraft modules and 3D objects are. Such a link in the launcher just adds to the confusion.

I’m not sure what a mod manager is even supposed to do but it shouldn’t be ED’s job to manage these. 

The problem with your theory is that the game loads before the mods do. Ergo, if we have a mod manager integrated into the launcher, and each mod had a check box where a person could choose to load it or not, that would allow people to troubleshoot whether or not a mod is what's causing their problems.

Such a manager would also make the installation of the mod easier since it can handle the installation of the mod, and make sure it's installed correctly, which is usually a major reason why the mod doesn't work or causes issues for the game. Other titles have such a feature for mods, I don't see why DCS shouldn't have one as well.

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

The problem with your theory is that the game loads before the mods do. Ergo, if we have a mod manager integrated into the launcher, and each mod had a check box where a person could choose to load it or not, that would allow people to troubleshoot whether or not a mod is what's causing their problems.

Such a manager would also make the installation of the mod easier since it can handle the installation of the mod, and make sure it's installed correctly, which is usually a major reason why the mod doesn't work or causes issues for the game. Other titles have such a feature for mods, I don't see why DCS shouldn't have one as well.

There are mod manager apps which already perform these tasks so they don’t need to be duplicated in the launcher. And again such inclusion in the launcher implies some official endorsement of content which is actually unofficial. Encouraging the use of unofficial mods simply adds to the bug fixing workload for ED and their partners, so I don’t think it’s a good idea to put these right in the front door to the game. 

[Tank50us]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

There are mod manager apps which already perform these tasks so they don’t need to be duplicated in the launcher. And again such inclusion in the launcher implies some official endorsement of content which is actually unofficial. Encouraging the use of unofficial mods simply adds to the bug fixing workload for ED and their partners, so I don’t think it’s a good idea to put these right in the front door to the game. 

Such programs are also a pain in the tailpipe to use. A certain Ground Combat Sim's launcher by comparison is stupidly simple to use. Take a .ini file with the mod list, drop it in (or load it manually), and it grabs all the mods and installs them. No setup necessary beyond installing the game as it's part of the launcher.

And considering how often the A-4 appears in official trailers, trying to imply that ED doesn't officially support mods is a bit rich. And since I talked about making it so that the player can log out, hit a check box, and log back in to see if the issues are fixed... that's basic troubleshooting 101. ED wouldn't get a bug report if a player did that, the mod dev would. "Hey, your mod breaks the game, what's going on?" And ED could even add that as a step before someone submits a bug report "Hey, if you have mods, be sure to check and see if they're breaking the game first. If they are, contact their dev team and tell them. If not, then please submit a crash report"

This would be a simple QOL change that would make managing the game and mods so much easier... why be so resistant to anything that changes the game for the better?

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Tank50us said:

trying to imply that ED doesn't officially support mods is a bit rich

Unofficial mods are unofficial. I don’t think it’s ED’s job to manage or support them. Putting a manager in the launcher implies official support and work on that drains resources that can be used elsewhere. 

2 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Such programs are also a pain in the tailpipe to use.

Good. It keeps a lid on people going overboard with them. The devs would get flooded with bug reports if these were overused. 

2 hours ago, Tank50us said:

why be so resistant to anything that changes the game for the better?

Mods don’t necessarily make the game better

 

[Tank50us]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Mods don’t necessarily make the game better

I would STRONGLY disagree. If someone is trying to simulate an actual mid-Cold War scenario, using only base-game assets, they wouldn't be able to do it accurately. Sure, a portion of the units are present, namely the T-55, BMP-1, M113, and M60.... but what about the M110? The various naval assets both sides had at the time? Sure, we have one (Forrestal), but what about the rest of the USN, NATO, or USSR of the 60s? ED isn't working on any of those assets at the moment, but right now... the mod makers are.

The same applies for much of the current generation equipment. Much of it is still MIA from official support. But the mod makers are bringing it in. And from the WW2 side... we have the allies and the 1/3 of the Axis powers. Sure, the Japanese Empire is coming, but what about the Italians? Or even the Soviets? Not a single Soviet asset from WW2 is even part of the WW2AP. Not even the T-34 or IS.

Mods have a place. You just don't want them because you think it'll be bad for the end user experience. Towit, if the game had a more mod-friendly installer like every other simulator on the market does, we'd all be better off.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Tank50us

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

21 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

I would STRONGLY disagree.

It really doesn't matter if you agree or disagree, adding in amateur code into the game can and does raise issues. I've had a number of issues arise because of mods. Everything from crashing to sound errors that effected the entire software.

It's why the devs and support always suggest you empty your mod folders whenever you have issues with DCS. That video by reflected is good testimony as to why. ED needs all the help it can get to address issues, really.

I love the A-4E-C, I love the OH-6, but they could still see an update that introduces issues.

They are a double edged sword and that's just how it is.

[Tank50us]

5 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

It really doesn't matter if you agree or disagree, adding in amateur code into the game can and does raise issues. I've had a number of issues arise because of mods. Everything from crashing to sound errors that effected the entire software.

It's why the devs and support always suggest you empty your mod folders whenever you have issues with DCS. That video by reflected is good testimony as to why. ED needs all the help it can get to address issues, really.

I love the A-4E-C, I love the OH-6, but they could still see an update that introduces issues.

They are a double edged sword and that's just how it is.

This would actually be a good reason for the launcher handling the mods rather than third party programs (like we have now). If you're having issues with one or more mods, the launcher should be able to able/disable the mods as needed by the user.

One thing I'll say about mods and issues that I think many people forget, is that problems can arise even with the modules that we pay for. Some of them can be completely game-breaking, and some we've seen rendered an entire module completely unusable. And this is for the stuff we pay for. And how often has a patch been released (not just for DCS, but other titles as well), that unknowingly introduced a bug that killed the whole game and required a hotfix?

Really the only difference here is the desire to fix the problem. Obviously, someone working on a mod could get bombarded with crash reports, and choose to not fix any of the issues... but we've seen this happen with a paid module as well.

The method I suggest (enable/disable mods from the launcher), would allow a player to check which mods need to be removed without themselves having to move folders around. If it's all done from the launcher, they can just close the game, go into the launcher, check/uncheck a box, reload the game. A process that takes seconds to a couple minutes (depending on how long it takes for the game to fire up and close out) at most to complete. Compare that to closing the game all the way down, going to the mod folder, moving the relevant folder (or deleting it), and then relaunching. A process that will vary much more greatly due to the computers own limitations.

[bies]

My overall sentiment is the opposite - literally hundreds of thousands of people all around the world, not knowing DCS at all (including a few of my friends), are watching all these "Rafale vs. Su-57" videos, attracted by the titles. They have no idea that these are not the part of DCS, but amateur made MODs of very different quality (generally the more 'modern' the more fictional and 'patriotic') because usually content creators deliberately don't indicate this to attract more viewers.

Unconsciously these masses of potential future playerbase are developing the false impression that DCS is a totally unrealistic airquake not different than Ace Combat, with fictional systems, generic FC3 F-15 avionics everywhere, 1990s-era cockpit textures with like 5 switches, going Mach=3 and spinning like your first Kerbal prototype, with unlimited engine power and zero damage model.

If anything, I would say MODs should be separated more clearly, not less, from the quality controlled DCS, but this is mostly for the content creators decency. On ED side it's ok as it is right now - all the MODs are ok, but clearly separated and on your own risk.

 

PS. Absolutely not mocking non-modern declassified fantastic MODs like A-4 Skyhawk or OH-6. Or many AI assets and other things made by talented guys. And quality of these has been verified by the reality - they are included in many popular MP servers, because people find them very well made, fun, fitting and realistic.)

Edited November 21, 2024 by bies

[Tank50us]

39 minutes ago, bies said:

My overall sentiment is the opposite - literally hundreds of thousands of people all around the world, not knowing DCS at all (including a few of my friends), are watching all these "Rafale vs. Su-57" videos, attracted by the titles. They have no idea that these are not the part of DCS, but amateur made MODs of very different quality (generally the more 'modern' the more fictional and 'patriotic') because usually content creators deliberately don't indicate this to attract more viewers.

Unconsciously these masses of potential future playerbase are developing the false impression that DCS is a totally unrealistic airquake not different than Ace Combat, with fictional systems, generic FC3 F-15 avionics everywhere, 1990s-era cockpit textures with like 5 switches, going Mach=3 and spinning like your first Kerbal prototype, with unlimited engine power and zero damage model.

If anything, I would say MODs should be separated more clearly, not less, from the quality controlled DCS, but this is mostly for the content creators decency. On ED side it's ok as it is right now - all the MODs are ok, but clearly separated and on your own risk.

I think it should be noted that most of these mods are basically made by a single dude, or a very, VERY small team, most of them with a lack of access to the real aircraft to crawl around and get detailed pictures.

But I think you'd agree that a way to quickly disable the mod or re-enable it (and more easily update it) would be a significant upgrade compared to what we have now.

[bies]

27 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

I think it should be noted that most of these mods are basically made by a single dude, or a very, VERY small team, most of them with a lack of access to the real aircraft to crawl around and get detailed pictures.

But I think you'd agree that a way to quickly disable the mod or re-enable it (and more easily update it) would be a significant upgrade compared to what we have now.

As usually - yes and no. Quality MODs like A-4 or OH-6 or AI asset packs usually don't require anything to work so they are 'one time ON and leave it like that', no need to disable them so they wouldn't particularly benefit from the launcher.

What would benefit from such launcher are mostly 'try and forget' lowest quality, most bugged, least maintained 'FC3 F-15 retextured as XXX superfighter' MODs - and branding such lowest quality, often broken, completely unrealistic and game-crashing MODs through the official launcher would be a shot in the foot for ED.

I think this few small additional steps required for the MOD to work right now, is a great natural filter, preventing the most inexperienced guys from breaking their DCS, often beyound repair, without complete reinstall, all the time.

Edited November 21, 2024 by bies

[upyr1]

I can see the argument against including a mod manager in the launcher, but how about a semi-official open-source mod manager? 

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, bies said:

 literally hundreds of thousands of people all around the world, not knowing DCS at all (including a few of my friends), are watching all these "Rafale vs. Su-57" videos, attracted by the titles. They have no idea that these are not the part of DCS, but amateur made MODs

Exactly. And no matter how high quality a mod might seem it can cause lots of problems. Putting these unofficial mods right into the launcher only exacerbates the problem. 

[Tank50us]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Exactly. And no matter how high quality a mod might seem it can cause lots of problems. Putting these unofficial mods right into the launcher only exacerbates the problem. 

No it really doesn't. We're not talking about them being downloaded with the base game, we're talking about giving the launcher the ability to load/unload a mod without having to dig through the mod folder and move files around. Another functionality would be if someone joined a group that required certain mods, all that group would have to do is send the person joining a ModList.ini file that they can then plug into the launcher, and it goes and grabs those mods and then installs them where they're supposed to go.

Or would you rather that group tell the person "Go find these ten mods", and the person in question spend the next few hours (because not all of them are in the User Files, like the A-4 and the Goshawk) trying to find them, grab the right versions, and then try to figure out which folder they're supposed to go into?

[SharpeXB]

53 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

No it really doesn't.

Yeah it would. It’s spoon feeding players things that will cause them to make bug reports. I’d rather ED and their partners stay focused on more important things. That video was made by a Third Party contributor emploring people to stop wasting his time with mod induced bug reports. 

53 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Or would you rather that group tell the person "Go find these ten mods",

The group doesn’t know how to send someone a link?

Edited November 21, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Tank50us]

37 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The group doesn’t know how to send someone a link?

I've been in groups that did exactly as I described, and treated those who asked for links as if they were stupid. Needless to say, I didn't hang around long.

That all being said... I'd rather things be as simple as possible outside of the pit so we can focus all our efforts on actually flying and enjoying the sim. Not making it as hard as humanly possible just to get into it, which ultimately turns people off.

[YoYo]

But actually, it would be good if ED adopted:

- official standards for mods,
- introduced a path directly in the Launcher for management, quick enabling, disabling
- based on ZIP, RAR file in the appropriate structure.

This is a good and convenient way. +1.

[MAXsenna]

8 minutes ago, YoYo said:

But actually, it would be good if ED adopted:

- official standards for mods,
- introduced a path directly in the Launcher for management, quick enabling, disabling
- based on ZIP, RAR file in the appropriate structure.

This is a good and convenient way. +1.

Yup, this! Along with @Tank50us' suggestions. I don't understand why an official mod/livery manager won't benefit all users. Don't come babling about "resources". Don't we want to attract more new users? Seriously? 

@Tank50us No point discussing with Sharpy. That's an uphill battle you can never win. He'll only change his mind when he sees it's to his benefit or gives others an advantage.

[Tank50us]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

@Tank50us No point discussing with Sharpy. That's an uphill battle you can never win. He'll only change his mind when he sees it's to his benefit or gives others an advantage.

Nah, I doubt he ever will change his mind on anything that makes the game easier for the average person.

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Don't we want to attract more new users? Seriously? 

This, this right there. I want to see more people coming into the game, and jumping into pits. The sheer number of people who are on FB who talk about being new to the game and struggling with certain aspects is staggering. And considering MS is currently going through fire extinguishers at a rate that can make one buy stock in Amerex... I can see people looking at alternatives, and seeing DCS as a viable one especially with the free to try model and the mods that are available. And once they try some of the good mods, they may be willing to buy modules, and I can only see that as an absolute win.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Tank50us

[upyr1]

My mod wishlist

1. A mod manager that will work with the user file section as a repository Ideally there would be the option to add other repositories

2. a filter in DCS that will allow us to hide servers that require a mod or asset pack we don't have

 

[Tank50us]

42 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

2. a filter in DCS that will allow us to hide servers that require a mod or asset pack we don't have

An addendum to this... we can not only see what mods are required, but get the ability to download them if the server set the mod list to public.