correct as is problem not understood: Tpod moves the entire flightplan and all waypoints away

[Draken401]

Hello folks,

@Lord Vader; @razo+r; @Layer_8; @BIGNEWY

the original post has been closed, the problem is being coldly ignored by ED!

Do you have the feeling that ED is not listening? Yes!

Do you have the feeling that ED always answers directly: "correct as is"? Yes!

The fact is that ED keeps bringing out updates and unknowingly introducing bugs. Often even bugs that have been there before in one form or another.

And now back to the topic, and please get rid of Center Zero here! Yes, with CZ you can fortunately reset everything back to zero. But Center Zero is not the problem!

As I wrote and as @Layer_8 also recognized, everything is OK on the HSD page on the MFD.

Instead, since the patch mentioned, something has been happening in the background that shifts all waypoints to the same extent in the direction in which the TPod (or generally the sensor of interest) is looking. This is reflected, as I explained, on the HUD Navigation Data Block, on the lollipod on the HUD, and especially on the EHSI (Electronic Horizontal Situation Indicator) between the pilot's knees.

Of course, an offset/delta forms when moving the SOI, but here before the patch the navigation data to the waypoints remained correct and did not shift. Likewise, before the patch this had no negative impact on setting and using markpoints or using weapons.

Please check your product! Please compare with your own eyes the navigation data on the HUD and on the EHSI on the tracks that I sent you with an older video that I found. 

 

@Lord Vader your comment: "If you think this isn't working as the real aircraft would, please supply publicly available non-classified documentation to prove otherwise via private message to @BIGNEWY and we will look into it. Unfortunately, we cannot commit to changes based on personal opinions." is an absolutely arrogant audacity!

[Default774]

47 minutes ago, Draken401 said:

Of course, an offset/delta forms when moving the SOI, but here before the patch the navigation data to the waypoints remained correct and did not shift. Likewise, before the patch this had no negative impact on setting and using markpoints or using weapons.

 

I think youre remembering stuff incorrectly. There has been no change to the spi system in the last patch, or even the last few ones. 

 

48 minutes ago, Draken401 said:

Please check your product! Please compare with your own eyes the navigation data on the HUD and on the EHSI on the tracks that I sent you with an older video that I found. 

 

That video is over 2 years old now, back then the SPI system was not working correctly.

As far as I know the viper's SPI system is (mostly) working correctly at the moment

[Furiz]

3 hours ago, Draken401 said:

Do you have the feeling that ED is not listening? Yes!

They gave very good answer on your question, the problem is that you don't understand the concept of Viper's SPI. Just like you don't understand the concept of Bug Reports forum section.

You only offer your opinion and nothing else, no documentation from real jet etc... then you start throwing knives at ED, you might be wrong.

[Lord Vader]

Hello @Draken401

I will only address two items in your post.

1- The original post was not closed. It was merged with another topic by another user who had the same issue with CZ. There was no need to create another topic, you could easily continue the conversation on the original one. But, that's ok. 

2- We at ED can only commit to changes that are properly documented (and public) about the model of aircraft we're replicating. To create a product based on what we "feel" is ok, that would be "arrogant audacity". On the contrary we only want to replicate the real aircraft as accurately as we can.

Regarding all else, it's already been explained what the correct behaviour is, by myself and other users. Indeed we are all listening. 

Happy flights.

[Draken401]

Hello everyone,

I am emotionally attached here and have overshot the mark. I sincerely apologize for that! This module is very important to me and in the past few weeks I have been training two new DCS pilots on this module. And I would like to do this as completely and error-free as possible.

Unfortunately, I feel that my issue is not sufficiently addressed with the answer Center Zero and SPI and is less resolved than dismissed. When someone then asks me, as a small user, to submit technical documents to support my request, I wonder on what basis this module is being developed. It seems to me as if I were driving my car to the workshop and saying that something is rattling, and they tell me why I think that this shouldn't be the case and that I should show them the manufacturer's manual. But maybe this was just a translation error or misunderstanding. I apologize!

If I am so wrong and misunderstood the topic I am addressing, perhaps someone would be willing to explain the following point to me.

For my understanding and as far as it has been confirmed to me here, when I move the SPI I create a delta or offset to the waypoint or markpoint selected as the current steerpoint. And only to this steerpoint, not to any other waypoint or markpoint, or whatever! And with Center Zero or TMS down I set the delta back to zero. That is how I have always known it.

But now to what I am convinced was not the case two months ago and which makes absolutely no logical sense to me. Please correct me here.
- Why does the EHSI (Electronic Horizontal Situation Indicator) show the exact position of the SPI in direction and distance as soon as I move the SPI and create the so-called delta, and not the distance and direction of my selected steerpoint.
- And why, if I don't reset to CZ and switch through the waypoints, every other waypoint switched as a steerpoint is changed by the same delta on the EHSI in direction and distance and the position of the waypoint is therefore displayed completely wrong, unless I a.) move the SPI again and thereby create a new delta to the now selected steerpoint/waypoint and then again have this new delta displayed on the EHSI, or b.) press CZ or TMS down and thus reset the SPI and now finally have the correct position of all waypoints switched through displayed on the EHSI again. Why does the delta between SPI and steerpoint affect all other waypoints and markpoints when it should only be related to the current steerpoint?
- Likewise, the navigation block on the HUD and on the helmet display should, as far as I understand, show the slant range to the SPI in the third line from the bottom and show the distance to the steerpoint in the bottom line in Nav mode and in A/G mode despite everything. Unfortunately, after moving the SPI, the bottom line is no longer aligned with the actual and actually correct position of the steerpoint.

This is what I wanted to show you with the two track files in the original post.

Unfortunately, I see my problem here too: if I set 4 mark points and then ripple 4 GBU 38s onto them, as opposed to before, some of the mark points are shifted and the bombs no longer hit. But maybe the cause is something else that I don't understand.

 

I hope you understand my question, despite the translation, and maybe someone can explain this illogical behavior with the F-16C to me.

Thank you very much

Edited December 16, 2024 by Draken401

[Layer_8]

16 hours ago, Draken401 said:

Hello everyone,

I am emotionally attached here and have overshot the mark. I sincerely apologize for that! This module is very important to me and in the past few weeks I have been training two new DCS pilots on this module. And I would like to do this as completely and error-free as possible.

Unfortunately, I feel that my issue is not sufficiently addressed with the answer Center Zero and SPI and is less resolved than dismissed. When someone then asks me, as a small user, to submit technical documents to support my request, I wonder on what basis this module is being developed. It seems to me as if I were driving my car to the workshop and saying that something is rattling, and they tell me why I think that this shouldn't be the case and that I should show them the manufacturer's manual. But maybe this was just a translation error or misunderstanding. I apologize!

If I am so wrong and misunderstood the topic I am addressing, perhaps someone would be willing to explain the following point to me.

For my understanding and as far as it has been confirmed to me here, when I move the SPI I create a delta or offset to the waypoint or markpoint selected as the current steerpoint. And only to this steerpoint, not to any other waypoint or markpoint, or whatever! And with Center Zero or TMS down I set the delta back to zero. That is how I have always known it.

But now to what I am convinced was not the case two months ago and which makes absolutely no logical sense to me. Please correct me here.
- Why does the EHSI (Electronic Horizontal Situation Indicator) show the exact position of the SPI in direction and distance as soon as I move the SPI and create the so-called delta, and not the distance and direction of my selected steerpoint.
- And why, if I don't reset to CZ and switch through the waypoints, every other waypoint switched as a steerpoint is changed by the same delta on the EHSI in direction and distance and the position of the waypoint is therefore displayed completely wrong, unless I a.) move the SPI again and thereby create a new delta to the now selected steerpoint/waypoint and then again have this new delta displayed on the EHSI, or b.) press CZ or TMS down and thus reset the SPI and now finally have the correct position of all waypoints switched through displayed on the EHSI again. Why does the delta between SPI and steerpoint affect all other waypoints and markpoints when it should only be related to the current steerpoint?
- Likewise, the navigation block on the HUD and on the helmet display should, as far as I understand, show the slant range to the SPI in the third line from the bottom and show the distance to the steerpoint in the bottom line in Nav mode and in A/G mode despite everything. Unfortunately, after moving the SPI, the bottom line is no longer aligned with the actual and actually correct position of the steerpoint.

This is what I wanted to show you with the two track files in the original post.

Unfortunately, I see my problem here too: if I set 4 mark points and then ripple 4 GBU 38s onto them, as opposed to before, some of the mark points are shifted and the bombs no longer hit. But maybe the cause is something else that I don't understand.

 

I hope you understand my question, despite the translation, and maybe someone can explain this illogical behavior with the F-16C to me.

Thank you very much

That is exactly what i didn't understand. In my original post, i noticed the exact same "issue". As i said, i have been away from the viper for quite some time,  more than a year i think.

Before that, i can not exactly specify when, i could create a new SPI, and if i remember correctly, its delta didn't carry over to the "non current steerpoints".

In example, i had some targets in the area of steerpoint 4, engaged them with mavericks via tpod and could fly the rest of the flightplan, like stp 5-10 without any shift in position or at least i didn't notice.

What really makes me wonder is, it seems to only affect the HUD and EHSI, the HSI MFD page seems to be unaffected somehow.

Im not saying that this is not how the real thing works, but to me it seems somewhat counter intuitive.

Edited December 17, 2024 by Layer_8

[Vakarian]

16 hours ago, Draken401 said:

For my understanding and as far as it has been confirmed to me here, when I move the SPI I create a delta or offset to the waypoint or markpoint selected as the current steerpoint.

Nope. As soon as you introduce delta, the entire flightplan changes. 

EHSI and the HUD will continue to show nav data to the now offset points because they just show the info how much away is the current point. The system doesn't know that your intention isn't to navigate to the offset points. 

If you had for example Steerpoint 7 on the threshold of the airfield, before you have done some TGP work and found some targets (it's irrelevant how) and you didn't CZ, when you start flying back to the airfield you will notice that the steerpoint is no longer at the threshold, but the system is guiding you to the offset position of the Steerpoint 7.

That is precisely why after every engagement you have where you targeted something (moved the SPI away from the steerpoint/markpoint...), CZ and then try find another target.

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Vakarian:

Nope. As soon as you introduce delta, the entire flightplan changes. 

EHSI and the HUD will continue to show nav data to the now offset points because they just show the info how much away is the current point. The system doesn't know that your intention isn't to navigate to the offset points. 

If you had for example Steerpoint 7 on the threshold of the airfield, before you have done some TGP work and found some targets (it's irrelevant how) and you didn't CZ, when you start flying back to the airfield you will notice that the steerpoint is no longer at the threshold, but the system is guiding you to the offset position of the Steerpoint 7.

That is precisely why after every engagement you have where you targeted something (moved the SPI away from the steerpoint/markpoint...), CZ and then try find another target.

Does this also apply to DTOS/VIZ? (Haven't tested it ingame yet)

Because:

-Attack steering on the HUD and MFD is  release point.

-Navigation steering is  IP coordinate