Goodbye DCS?

[kitten40]

It is with much regret that I decide to part ways with DCS. 

The thought has been brewing in the back of my mind for some time now, but I kept putting it off, making excuses for this or that, I have other things to worry about, etc, etc.

Lately i have been absent from actually flying, and concentrating on fulfilling my agreements with custom liveries ..

This is where things really hit home for me.. Not only is the DCS core full of bugs and problems (which we all know about and have come to love), especially with each update, but even the simplest of tasks (and i mean that figuratively) like painting custom skins, has become such a headache.

Yes, I'm ecstatic that ED provides paintkits .. But .. they are incomplete "IN MY MIND" .. What should have taken approx no more than 10 minutes, took more than an hour to try and figure out the Board numbers for the Flanker.. Why? Because those files weren't included in the 'kit'.

It's just one more thing on my growing list of incomplete things in DCS that I seem to be trying to overcome lately..

On the topic of paint, where is the Tomcat kit? How long ago was it promised? Is it a Heatblur thing or ED thing? I'm not hating on either, I love them both to death (check my purchases lol) 

How do we paint the new F5.. the descriptions are absolutely horrendous when trying to figure out F5 vs FC2024, etc.

Overall I'm not disappointed in the general state of DCS, but more like I feel it's very disorganized and haphazard, and almost seems to be trending towards the worst.

Just my 2 cents, that really in Canadian currency means nothing, but to me, it's a concerning observation.

[Beirut]

As soon as I stop having a riot flying around the Kola map, I'll consider giving up on DCS. You know, around Q5  2032.

 

Happy New Year! 

 

And remember - always drink and fly but never drink and drive!

[kitten40]

 Maybe thats what i need.. Get back to flying and ignore the rest 

[Beirut]

8 hours ago, kitten40 said:

 Maybe thats what i need.. Get back to flying and ignore the rest 

 

Happiness is the art of the possible. 

 

It's a flight simulator. It's the best flight simulator. Enjoy a lovely flight for no other reason than to enjoy a lovely flight.

 

[waterman]

Your 100% right !

Just enjoy a nice flight .

Forget about skinning and edm files and broken things you cannot fix.

They keep making modding harder and harder like we are the Enemy !

We have to battle with this sim every update.

We are not paid Beta Testers for this sim.

See how they get on with no feed back and fixes for their bugs.

[Rudel_chw]

11 hours ago, kitten40 said:

Not only is the DCS core full of bugs and problems (which we all know about and have come to love), especially with each update, but even the simplest of tasks (and i mean that figuratively) like painting custom skins, has become such a headache.

I must admit that I feel disappointed on DCS, but it is not the bugs or the early access… I don’t do multiplayer, so MP bugs dont bother me, I don’t have a multi-monitor setup so its bugs and limitations dont bother me, I’m no longer using VR so even less bugs to care about, if the xyz weapon is still not implemented, I just use another weapon, and so on and on, bugs don’t really bother me …

 

but the Razbam issue has killed a lot of my joy for this Sim, however I’m still flying DCS but and don’t intend to leave it just yet …. But I can’t deny that it has lost a lot of its appeal to me. 

[waterman]

7 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

but the Razbam issue has killed a lot of my joy for this Sim

Yes i agree with that.

Its a total waste of time having that stupid Razbam vs DCS soap opera in your face everytime you visit the forum.

Its like DCS love to have those soap operas running so they can poke people with the big stick when they get over excited.

 

 

[Beirut]

I just had a lovely F-15E flight on Kola, TACAN-ing my way through the clouds to home plate. The drama didn't make my flight any less enjoyable.

 

I suppose I could hate this and hate that and be upset about the other thing, but I'd rather just enjoy flying. I have Hornets and Vipers and Warthogs and Tomcats and nice maps, I'm going to have as much fun with it as I can. That's why I spent... oh my God! That much? 

 

Yep, I'm going to get every last moment and dollar's worth of flightsim goodness I can out of it. 

[NineLine]

Full disclosure, I edited the title, we have certain not abandoned anything. That said, I am not sure what the point of this thread is.

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Lately i have been absent from actually flying, and concentrating on fulfilling my agreements with custom liveries ..

You always have to remember to make time for yourself, or you do get burned out, that's what this sounds like. 

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Yes, I'm ecstatic that ED provides paintkits .. But .. they are incomplete "IN MY MIND" .. What should have taken approx no more than 10 minutes, took more than an hour to try and figure out the Board numbers for the Flanker.. Why? Because those files weren't included in the 'kit'.

A better thread maybe would have been to suggest what you found to be so difficult and what we could do to improve this. I myself would love to get back to painting some liveries from time to time, but yes the complication has grown over the years as the models started using new technologies, etc. The devs build these things with development in mind and do not always think about how the end user mind use or like to use these things. Feedback in this regard is great to have, and if you already have shared it, point me to it.

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On the topic of paint, where is the Tomcat kit? How long ago was it promised? Is it a Heatblur thing or ED thing? I'm not hating on either, I love them both to death (check my purchases lol) 

Heatblur would be responsible for releasing their template. 

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How do we paint the new F5.. the descriptions are absolutely horrendous when trying to figure out F5 vs FC2024, etc.

Realistically, you don't yet, the model isn't 100% finalized so the template is not 100% ready for release. When that is ready we will share that with everyone. 

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Overall I'm not disappointed in the general state of DCS, but more like I feel it's very disorganized and haphazard, and almost seems to be trending towards the worst.

I am not sure what this is in reference to, but I certainly do not understand why you made the abandonware jab in the title (which I removed). Feedback is critical to DCS's success, there is no way with our Q&A and volunteer tests we can catch every issue, especially when there are so many things people use DCS for. I briefly looked at your post history and didn't see anything related to livery issues. If you decide to return, and we hope you do. Give us some feedback, and if you are worried no one will look, send me a DM when you posted it and I will take a look. 

Thanks. 

[kitten40]

To everyone who has weighed in this post, I FIRESTMOST (is this a word?) and foremost apologize ..) I did not intend for this to become any sort of debate or discussion regarding anything DCS or ED related past, present, or future.. It was designed strictly to point out my observations as I saw them at the time of posting. 

I did take some time as both Nine and Beirut said, and just fly.. Enjoy the sim..

And you know what? It worked .. I spent some time just doing some SAR in the Huey, and some much needed target elimination in the Apache, and just forgot about everything else.. I played DCS as it was meant to be played ..  With as much immersion and emotion possible.

Are there things inherently wrong with DCS? Yes, of course ! Are they a deal-breaker? Well that depends on your level of expectation. In my case, I want it all, I want it right, and I want it NOW!!.

Is that possible?  NO !! I understand that and as Nine pointed out, I would say I was suffering from a bit of burnout, and a step (or 4) back made me realize this..  Once I went back to doing what I initially set out to do in DCS, and ignored the rest, my (imagined??) problems went away...  

I know we keep hearing that things are coming to DCS, and it all seems out of reach the way thin\s go, but I think we have to keep it together emotionally and not lash out (as myself did) and keep the experience of DCS alive..

I myself was a HUGE fan of LOMAC, and it's simplicity is unparalleled compared to todays DCS...

 

BUT ...

 

I am not a fan of being misled .. Are we being misled?? I don't know.. Sometimes it feels as such ..What is the new term nowadays? Gaslighting?  Sometimes it feels that way as well ..

 

My earlier post made reference to paintkits,, Newy mentioned the F5 coming by the Christmas update, Nine mentioned not for a while (to keep it simple read above),

and to me this is the problem within.. There is no actual transparency to us, and 2 people whom I look up to with the highest regards, have differing statements.

I do believe Nine's is the most accurate statement here, as it makes 2 tons worth of sense, but it still shows a little on the side of right hand doesn't know about left hand... And I think that's where ALL of the dissention comes from ..

 

Again,. my 2 cents, and  hope I'm not over-thinking this ..

 

Nine, and B-Newy, you're the goats in a very foggy storm !Thank you for all you try and do !

 

 

 

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, kitten40 said:

I did take some time as both Nine and Beirut said, and just fly.. Enjoy the sim..

And you know what? It worked .. 

 

Amen!

 

There are several legitimate things to bee-yatch and whine about in DCS - no biological weapons, WTF! - but taking the sim first and foremost as a flight simulator and marveling at being able to fly Eagles and Warthogs and Hornets in the most complete and detailed reproduction available, replete with Haagen-Dazs eye candy in the air and on the ground, that's my jam. I'm not passing that by because of a bug here and there or something being incomplete. I'll get out of it everything I can.

 

I'm here for the fun of flying. I just want to fly and I want it to look great and be cool. And none of the other sims feel as tight and well put together as DCS. 

[Mustang]

Even with my current workload being full on I will ALWAYS make time for DCS if I am able to, especially on my days off - sometimes I feel like I'm married to this sim lol

Edited January 11 by Mustang

[MAXsenna]

DCS' my drug. Just sayin'.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[coldViPer]

After spending a lot of time with the latest civilian simulator, my god, what a disaster! After that I love DCS more than ever

[maxTRX]

On 1/1/2025 at 5:36 AM, Rudel_chw said:

but the Razbam issue has killed a lot of my joy for this Sim, however I’m still flying DCS but and don’t intend to leave it just yet …. But I can’t deny that it has lost a lot of its appeal to me. 

I wonder if someone already created a neutral and unbiased LLM engine with international law flavor... with an integrated AI judge  , capable of running all mediation solutions in one session and then, if the parties still don't agree... slap the judgement on them in the same session. Oh, no 'real' lawyers would be allowed to attend, lol.

[Aapje]

Why would anyone make an unbiased LLM when you can bake your own biases into the thing to make it work 'correctly'? It's like expecting unbiased journalism.

[maxTRX]

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

Why would anyone make an unbiased LLM when you can bake your own biases into the thing to make it work 'correctly'? It's like expecting unbiased journalism.

I just tried to bake an indirect message into my post.  ... perhaps I outdone myself a bit, hehe.  

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 1/10/2025 at 4:59 PM, kitten40 said:

 

 

I am not a fan of being misled .. Are we being misled?? I don't know.. Sometimes it feels as such ..What is the new term nowadays? Gaslighting?  Sometimes it feels that way as well ..

 

My earlier post made reference to paintkits,, Newy mentioned the F5 coming by the Christmas update, Nine mentioned not for a while (to keep it simple read above),

and to me this is the problem within.. There is no actual transparency to us, and 2 people whom I look up to with the highest regards, have differing statements.

I do believe Nine's is the most accurate statement here, as it makes 2 tons worth of sense, but it still shows a little on the side of right hand doesn't know about left hand... And I think that's where ALL of the dissention comes from ..

 

Again,. my 2 cents, and  hope I'm not over-thinking this ..

 

Nine, and B-Newy, you're the goats in a very foggy storm !Thank you for all you try and do !

 

 

 

Honestly, I hear you loud and clear. There's a LOT of annoying habits ED has and they, frankly, refuse to answer for them with some frequency.

But, with the issue of paint kits? I'd honestly just chalk that up to miscommunication by the virtue of there being two CMs. It happens.

[Aquorys]

I can relate. I have not been very active either for the last half year or so.

My experience today:

First of all, DCS tells me that there is another update I need to install, but I skip, and join a bad weather multiplayer server.

I take off, while flying outbound I encounter an AI F-15C. I decide to engage first, AI F-15C at 26k, ~M0.9, I am in an F-16CM at 27k, ~M1.3. I fire one AMRAAM, and the F-15C fires one at me too. This is where mine went:

null

Not sure where it's headed, but it isn't any place that F-15C was at before.

Meanwhile, I had defeated the AI's AMRAAM kinetically.

A minute later or so I decide to turn around and fire two more AMRAAMs, and the AI fires another AMRAAM at me again. This time the AI does some weird Hollywood Top Gun sh*t with 25 degrees AoA and a couple aileron rolls, and the AMRAAM that is 180 ft away with a M0.3 overtake misses - just like the second one.

I narrowly defeat the AI's AMRAAM kinetically again and fly towards my home airport at a very low altitude. The AI F-15C is intercepted by two friendlies (I think Su-27s), but both get shot down in dogfights. While I am trying to land at the airport, the AI decides to chase me again, despite the two active MIM-104 radar systems at the airport, because AI pilots do not believe in basic rules of self-preservation, and I get an AIM-7 fired at me. Now since I'm dead anyway, I turn towards the AI F-15C and fire an AIM-9X. I get hit by the AIM-7, but guess what, the AI F-15C flares within 1 second of my missile launch, and my AIM-9X with the most advanced imaging IR sensor that exists today locks on to the first flare dropped by the AI, and the 9X goes nowhere.

Instead, the AI-controlled MIM-104, which is misplaced in such a way that it should not even work, finally wakes up and somehow figures out that it would maybe be a good idea to shoot the hostile that's been flying around at a distance of roughly 7 nm at 11k ft for the last couple minutes, and the AI F-15C is finally brought down.

To summarize: 4 times in a row, none of the weapons that should have worked did anything, and the only weapon system that absolutely should not have been able to operate shot the target with the first round it fired.

I'm kinda underwhelmed. I guess, it just is what it is, or what it will always be ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited February 9 by Aquorys

[Ornithopter]

Aquorys, By the extaordinarily in-depth, and passionate description of your dogfight, sounds like it must be the most immersive air combat simulation you've ever experienced, and you really love it!  You aren't "underwhelmed", you're addicted to it.  Or else, you're just being snarky.

[Aquorys]

On 2/9/2025 at 1:59 AM, Ornithopter said:

Aquorys, By the extaordinarily in-depth, and passionate description of your dogfight, sounds like it must be the most immersive air combat simulation you've ever experienced, and you really love it!  You aren't "underwhelmed", you're addicted to it.  Or else, you're just being snarky.

I am not saying that it is not immersive when you are just flying around - and in that case, the most immersive simulation I have been in wasn't DCS, it was an Airbus full flight simulator. What I am saying is that as soon as you are doing air-to-air combat, realism along with tactics go out the window, because the missiles are unrealistically unreliable, the AI uses absurd tactics that doesn't work in real life, and thereby exploits game glitches in the game's broken missile guidance instead of either employing proper tactics, or by failing to employ proper tactics and dying as a consequence, and as they should.

You called it a "passionate description of your dogfight", and that describes the problem quite well. It was not supposed to be a dogfight. I never wanted to get into a dogfight. My intention was a rather defensive BVR engagement. The dogfight is what happened because things that should have worked did not work.

Most of the air-to-ground stuff seems to be doing alright, but the air-to-air and air defense (SAM) parts have not worked properly in the past, do not work properly now, and I have lost faith that they ever will.

[NineLine]

Much of what you described seemed to be mission design, but its hard to say with little to no details, although I know this isn't a bug report thread. 

Also things in real life are not perfect, and things do not go as planned, most mission makers are making missions that result in furballs or closer action. You describing systems working and not working could have been triggers of some form or another, or any number of things. AI is always being improved but then it will always be AI at the end of the day, it will always do things unexpected or fly a maneuver better than a human, or worse. As we are always up against the performance barrier you need to have a little give and take. Same with most modern missiles, they are only as good as in the info we have, and many systems are light on available info, not to mention it is a game, so people quickly figure out how to game the game.

There is a lot more to these things than an Airbus flying from point A to point B. 

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Aquorys said:

...because the missiles are unrealistically unreliable

Quite the other way around. Missiles in DCS never suffer from random failures, unlike IRL, where missiles are real world machines that sometimes break. If your missiles miss, it is typically because you fired them out of parameters. It can also be because AI took proper steps and defeated your missile. IRL, modern missiles are not a magic death wand, though a lot of people have that misconception. When those people are in the chain of command, the result is usually yet another fighter designed without a gun. This kind of thinking tends to get a reality check if an actual war breaks out.

Flares and chaff in DCS do need some work, they're very simplified currently, but it's also wrong to suggest that AIM-9X can't go for a flare if the conditions are right. Again, it's a missile that's being trumpeted as a magic death wand with the ability to ignore all countermeasures, but IRL it's not the case. Fire it out of parameters, or with an uncertain lock, and there's a chance it'll miss.

[Vee.A]

50 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Quite the other way around. Missiles in DCS never suffer from random failures, unlike IRL, where missiles are real world machines that sometimes break. If your missiles miss, it is typically because you fired them out of parameters. It can also be because AI took proper steps and defeated your missile. IRL, modern missiles are not a magic death wand, though a lot of people have that misconception. When those people are in the chain of command, the result is usually yet another fighter designed without a gun. This kind of thinking tends to get a reality check if an actual war breaks out.

Flares and chaff in DCS do need some work, they're very simplified currently, but it's also wrong to suggest that AIM-9X can't go for a flare if the conditions are right. Again, it's a missile that's being trumpeted as a magic death wand with the ability to ignore all countermeasures, but IRL it's not the case. Fire it out of parameters, or with an uncertain lock, and there's a chance it'll miss.

The flare system seems like it's complex enough to be capable of simulating it reasonably well from what I've read. Chaff seems like a bigger issue. Though of course, if ED overhauled those systems and released a whitepaper about it we'd probably get folks upset about why they're working on that over something else.

And by the way, if I recall correctly the old F-5 and the FC2024 F-5 use the same folder path for liveries, and all of them are compatible. That's only not the case with the F-5 remastered since it has an entirely new model.

Edited February 13 by Vee.A

[Dragon1-1]

Last I heard, both flares and chaff were basically dice rolls. Notice that, for instance, you can't lock onto a flare that's already been launched. Preflaring doesn't do much for you, either, but spamming flares the moment you see a launch does. This gets some results, all right, but it does not simulate the way those countermeasures actually work. This is a fairly complex subject, but the way older seekers and radars interact with them are well documented.