SAITEK X65F NEW CONTROLSYSTEM

[Flim]

I would not trade my FSSB in for one of those vibrator sticks. Why does a stick need to move to feel realistic?

 

Force sensor stick is by far the best way to go in every way! I'm glad someone finally figured that out.

[Feuerfalke]

Why does a stick need to move to feel realistic?

 

 

Who said so? I personally just don't like it, that's all. And I guess I'm not alone in this.

[Shaman]

Looks interesting, waiting for reviews and community feedback, praises and cries of hate from the users - lol

[Endoplasmic Reticulum]

As you can all see, I finally managed to use multi-quote instead of replying to every post seperately. I'm proud of myself and life makes sense now:smilewink:.

 

I'll also be getting the G940 now that I know :D

I can understand why some might rather want a force sensing stick though, if you fly fighters mostly (F-16 and others has it).

Eventhough I've never tryed a force sensing stick I don't think it's for me (I like old planes and choppers mostly)...

 

I'll have to get more information on the differences of both "force" technologies first before I can say which one makes sense to me. But I also use my FF-Stick for other games/sims, like racing games, for instance. That could be one reason for me to stick with the FF-Stick.

 

and the rest, bangers, Tomatoes, black pudding [chug] fried bread........

 

p.s. FYI it was rainning cats and dogs here yesturday...

 

Well, it seems that my beloved "Iskender-Kebap" comes right after it on second place ;).

 

On such days I'd need a new sim to maintain my fitness on my bike: DBS (Digital Bicycle Simulator): Black Scott.

 

There is a reason why even F-16s were refitted with a stick that at least moves a bit instead of just sensing forces.

 

As I also play WW1- and WW2-games, this is a no-go for me and even if I'd convert to a jet-only-jockey, I still prefer to have at least a moving stick. :(

 

This topic gained my interest in how forces are implemented in real fighterplanes and what the idea behind each concept is. I'll try to find out more about this or if one could give me a hint where I could find some (lots of, tonnes of) information on this...

 

I have some contacts to OKB Sukhoi by a girlfriend who is a translator for the international commitees at MAKS and whos whole family-members work in various departments in the Flight-Test Center in Zhukowski. They managed to give me lots of stuff, like various autographs of their test pilots (and some handshaking with them and exchange of information. Although the information was almost only one-wayed. I was the one asking and the pilots the ones answering) and some literature that are hard to find and insight in the SU-Cockpits. She joins me every time to the MAKS-Airshow and I get free access even on non-public days and makes me and my camera very happy. I love her!!!!! ;).

 

In one of the books of the OKB, there is some very detailed and interesting information about how the joystick of the SU-37MR works/worked. The automatic level-of-flight at changing speeds and angles-of-attack without having the necessity of moving (correcting) the stick was very interesting (not in AP-mode). I think I'll have to read it once again. Can't say anything about other aircrafts' joystick conception. This is where you have to gimme input ;).

 

One last idea of mine: I hope one day the companies switch to a multi-feature philosophy instead of just producing one feature-hardware. We say "eat or die" to this way of thinking. The modular design could give us some freedom in our choice. Why just FF or FS? It would be possible to have both modules from which the customer could chose. They could also create different joysticks of different aircraft, so that you could screw on the stick for SU-27-Family aircraft on top the base. And when you play F-16 you just replace it with a F-16 Mod-Stick. They could also apply a mechanism to twist the stick to one side for a certain degree. This way you could use it as a centered stick between the legs like the SUs have it without worrying about your wrist bending in an unnatural way. Why just having a sim with modular aircrafts when you can have the hardware modular as well. This way we could use them almost a lifetime and they could earn more money by selling various modules.

 

Ok. When I have some ideas, my keyboard (and some of you, I guess) begins sweating :smartass:. Now take a deep breath and relax, folks.

 

See ya.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Endoplasmic Reticulum

[-Bazong-]

Why does a stick need to move to feel realistic?

 

For the trim to behave realistically in BS?

Have you flown IL-2 with msFFB2 (with gunshake disabled!!)?

 

If my passion were for jetfighters I'd probably own a FSSB modded cougar, but I want to fly old planes and choppers mostly..

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Why does a stick need to move to feel realistic?

Because the stick does move in F-15, MiG-29, Su-27, Ka-50 ... I can not imagine anything else but moving stick when flying Ka-50.

 

Force feedback is not about shaking the stick when shooting a gun, but holding the stick when trimming the helicopter.

[Guest DukeNukem]

G940 Review...

 

I did a full review last week for Logitech on the G940. If you want to read it, I can post it here.

 

Duke

 

 

[Yskonyn]

I currently use the X52, which is a nice stick although a bit light in resistance on the stick, but that's personal preference. Also the spacey look (I have the non pro version) and crappy rotary's (for my fingers at least) makes me crave for a replacement at times.

The X65F looks like a worthy successor later this year, however I would like to know a bit more about this pressure sensing stuff. Will the whole stick be rigid without any option to enable 'conventional' stick movement?

 

I would find it awkward to push against a stick which doesn't move, but still the game responds...

It would be nice to have the option. Does anyone know wether this will be selectable?

 

Also will this stick support force feedback? In this thread it is mentioned a few times, but I seem to miss it in the specs on the Saitek site.. unless of course I have totally read over it. ;)

Edited November 14, 2009 by Yskonyn

[sobek]

It would be nice to have the option. Does anyone know wether this will be selectable?

 

Both methods use different sensors (force is sensed through strain gauges, movement nowadays via hall sensors), i do not think that this would be practical. The locking mechanism would have to be very stiff and durable as well. AFAIK everything indicates that the stick will be force sensing only, which also rules out the option of force feedback.

[Yskonyn]

Yeah the longer I was thinking about it, the more I came to your conclusion as well. The question will then be HOW awkward this force sensing will be for computer simulations. Note that I am not questioning force sensing to be the thing for real platforms (aircraft in this case), but there you will have feedback from the platform as well, meaning movement of the aircraft.

I just think it might be awkward sitting in front of your monitor with a rigid stick... (no lowly jokes please :D )

[CyBerkut]

Well, a number of folks paid big bucks to mod their Cougar sticks to Force Sensing. I suppose if someone regretted it, they might be less inclined to admit it... but I've seen plenty of postings from people claiming they loved theirs.

 

You would have feed back from your display(s) [instruments and out of the window views]. Whether that would feel like enough would be a personal thing, but I suspect most would adapt to it pretty quickly.

 

I could see it working well for many folks in a fighter sim, or even an A-10 sim... I'd be interested to see how quickly folks could adapt to using one wth the Black Shark non-FFB trim systems.

[sobek]

I just think it might be awkward sitting in front of your monitor with a rigid stick... (no lowly jokes please :D )

 

Mind you, the force sensing in the skin of your hands is very sophisticated, enough feedback there for you. You just have to get used to information not coming from your joints, but your skin/muscles.

[Yskonyn]

But does the stick stay rigid in principle or is there a certain 'travel' in all axis with these systems?

In other words; will the stick stay upright under pressure or will to move slighty in the direction you push it to give inputs to the force sensors?

If its the latter it wouldn't be too different I guess.

[sobek]

But does the stick stay rigid in principle or is there a certain 'travel' in all axis with these systems?

In other words; will the stick stay upright under pressure or will to move slighty in the direction you push it to give inputs to the force sensors?

If its the latter it wouldn't be too different I guess.

 

Force always means flexing, no matter how rigid the stick is. How much it flexes is subject to design and the strain measurement used.

[Feuerfalke]

Force always means flexing, no matter how rigid the stick is. How much it flexes is subject to design and the strain measurement used.

 

I know we're back at movement vs forces, but a force sensor-joystick does not "move" in the literal meaning of the word. Most common designs consist of 3 layers of conductors/semiconductors and a membrane and pressure on this apparature influences the resistance of the sensor.

So, the movement resulting movement is in fact within a fraction of a millimeter at max (if at all).

 

That's basically also how it works in the F-16, which had a completely rigid stick and that's how it was described before for the X65F.

[CoNa]

I know we're back at movement vs forces, but a force sensor-joystick does not "move" in the literal meaning of the word. Most common designs consist of 3 layers of conductors/semiconductors and a membrane and pressure on this apparature influences the resistance of the sensor.

So, the movement resulting movement is in fact within a fraction of a millimeter at max (if at all).

 

That's basically also how it works in the F-16, which had a completely rigid stick and that's how it was described before for the X65F.

 

I have asked just this to Saitek and they say 1/4 inch (8mm) is actually the travel of the X65F. This is according to them aprox the same amount of moving as the real F16 after the pilots complained of the first version of the fully ridgid stick. After this the F16 stick was moded with some travel. This would also give a better feeling on the X65F i belive.

[Feuerfalke]

I have asked just this to Saitek and they say 1/4 inch (8mm) is actually the travel of the X65F. This is according to them aprox the same amount of moving as the real F16 after the pilots complained of the first version of the fully ridgid stick. After this the F16 stick was moded with some travel. This would also give a better feeling on the X65F i belive.

 

Ah, cool - that's a neat info.

 

The question was asked before why to go for a fully rigid stick even the original designers in the F-16 had changed. But if it allows at least a bit of a notable movement, that's quite reasonable again - at least for modern jets ;)

 

Thanks for sharing - Rep inbound. :thumbup:

[Eddie]

I had suspected saitek would have built some movement into the stick, they certainly seem to be going all out with realistic modelling this time around. I obviously can't comment on all modern a/c, but certainly the F-16 (as mentioned already) and typhoon have a small amount of movement in the stick.

 

This is certainly looking like the winning option so far, although I am going to be holding fire for the TM offering before making my final choice.

[Hunt3r.j2]

Bump.

 

I'm guessing that this would make flying the Black Shark better, as it would recenter faster, no?

[CyBerkut]

Bump.

 

I'm guessing that this would make flying the Black Shark better, as it would recenter faster, no?

 

The possibility had occurred to me as well, if one wants to resign oneself to using one of the non-FFB work-around control schemes. I imagine a motivated individual could acclimate to it, and that someone who wanted to use the stick's twist (also force sensing, as I understand it, so little movement on that axis, if any) instead of pedals could do that as well. That would seem to offer a quick way to get rudder input back to center, too...

 

I still think a *properly*implemented* Force Feedback stick and rudder pedals would be much better for DCS:BS, but so far it appears that you still have to roll your own to approach that.

 

For a non-traditional approach to controlling the Black Shark, the X65F could be quite good. Saitek's front man over on their forums certainly seems to think so, FWIW. Time will tell.

[Pilotasso]

I have asked just this to Saitek and they say 1/4 inch (8mm) is actually the travel of the X65F. This is according to them aprox the same amount of moving as the real F16 after the pilots complained of the first version of the fully ridgid stick. After this the F16 stick was moded with some travel. This would also give a better feeling on the X65F i belive.

 

Yes, and sensibility to force is also adjustable.

[BladeLWS]

FYI there is no stick travel, its fixed.

[Groove]

Okay, mine arrived.

 

Anyone interested in pics?

[sobek]

Okay, mine arrived.

 

Anyone interested in pics?

 

Yes, but not only pics ;)

[McDaniel]

Groove ...:music_whistling: Pics are good, but I would like to hear your opinion as a simfreak! :D

 

I want to order the G940 or the Saitek....just dont know which is more appealing to me....hmmmm :helpsmilie: