not planned A2A Fastpacks

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

In the end, it should be very simple:

- if the capability was there (even if never actually used for whatever reason), include it in the sim;

- if the capability wasn't there, don't include it in the sim.

 

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

- if the capability was there (even if never actually used for whatever reason), include it in the sim;

This has always made the most sense to me. DCS simulates aircraft much more than it simulates theaters or time periods. ED calls it a sandbox. Make the plane as it was, including things that were possible but weren't used. Either way the F-15 is long long overdue.

[Sierra99]

7 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

How about acknowledging it's a standard and normal configuration dictated by mission-requirements which are seldomly on the table. As such, it should be in the scope for the F-15C in the game. Just like the general AG capability.

Because...It's not.

Posting a few examples of aircraft fitted with CFTs does not make it a "Standard and Normal configuration". As I said before in 22 years of active duty flying and in the 15 years since retirement I have never seen a photo of a USAF F-15C configured with CFTs. Not once. I have found references to Occasional use in Kef and Alaska...but they are far from the Norm. Why? Because the USAF is quite proficient at Air Refueling. Fighters don't need to add CFTs because we just add tankers to the strike plan and send it.  

That being said obviously more definitive information is required...

Google "PACAF INSTRUCTION 21-202. PACAF STANDARD CONVENTIONAL LOADS"

" This document provides the single standard naming convention for aircraft configurations to be used within PACAF."

In other words it is THE source document for what is considered a "Standard and Normal" load for PACAF Aircraft. There is not one single mention of conformal tanks in that Instruction. 1,2,and 3 external tanks are mentioned...but no conformal tanks. (Every command has a similar document...google is your friend)

The USAF F-15Cs being modeled by DCS do not need Conformal tanks nor do they need General Air to Ground capability. ( That was removed early in the their existence. ) I could be added to account for the outliers but they were far from the norm. 

[Bremspropeller]

We seem to have diverging ideas of what "standard" and "normal" is.

For me, "standard" is any cleared loadout and configuration. "Normal" is a loadout/ configuration that was flown on a regular basis. In terms of the 57th FIS it was both, standard and normal. For any different jet, it was a standard configuration.

The USAF with no doubt had been quite proficient at refuelling jets between the mid 1980s and mid 90s and nonetheless decided to put the CFTs on the 57th jets. Out of wisdom or ignorance - we'll never know, but it seemed to be a good idea to somebody at TAC/ ACC.

1 hour ago, Sierra99 said:

Google "PACAF INSTRUCTION 21-202. PACAF STANDARD CONVENTIONAL LOADS"

" This document provides the single standard naming convention for aircraft configurations to be used within PACAF."

In other words it is THE source document for what is considered a "Standard and Normal" load for PACAF Aircraft. There is not one single mention of conformal tanks in that Instruction. 1,2,and 3 external tanks are mentioned...but no conformal tanks. (Every command has a similar document...google is your friend)

1) CFTs aren't even mentioned for Strike Eagles. That's because they aren't "tanks" or "loadout". The document says exactly nothing in terms of our discussion.

2) Got an ACC document from pre '95?

1 hour ago, Sierra99 said:

The USAF F-15Cs being modeled by DCS do not need Conformal tanks nor do they need General Air to Ground capability. ( That was removed early in the their existence. ) I could be added to account for the outliers but they were far from the norm. 

Disagree.

 

Some more shots of the few with 57FIS (80-):

0027 in 1995

Spoiler

0029 in 1992

Spoiler

0029 and 81-0047  in 1993

Spoiler

0029 and 0035 in 1994

Spoiler

0038 in 1992

Spoiler

0041 in 1987

Spoiler

0042 in 1991

Spoiler

0043 and 0047 in 1990

Spoiler

0046 in 1993

Spoiler

0049 plus others in 1990

Spoiler

0050 in 1987

Spoiler

0050 in 1991

Spoiler

0052 in 1992

Spoiler

0057 (D model) in 1985

Spoiler

'86

Spoiler

'93

Spoiler

 

Edited January 19 by Bremspropeller

[Sierra99]

Since I have already acknowledged the 75th at Kef used CFTs on a regular basis I’m not sure why you are trying to convince me it happened. 

That being said…

They are not…and have never been “Standard” across the F-15C fleet. 
 

In the end we will have to wait and see what ED decides. You have your mind made up as far as what you want and I know what’s realistic. 
 

fly safe. 
 

 

[Gambit21]

Great points / documentation WRT CFT’s Brems - would be great to see them as an option because…why not?

 

 

[Sierra99]

Actually I am going to correct you on this point...

Quote

1) CFTs aren't even mentioned for Strike Eagles. That's because they aren't "tanks" or "loadout". The document says exactly nothing in terms of our discussion.

You are correct. CFTs are not  mentioned for Strike Eagles in 21-202 not because they aren't tanks or loadouts. They are accounted for in the aircraft Basic Weight and Moment as computed using TO-1-1B-50 (Weight and Balance calculations). Specifically Chart "C".
 

Quote

The Chart C is a continuous and permanent history of the aircraft Basic Weight, moment, and CG. Any required change to the aircraft Basic Weight and/or Moment shall be recorded on the Chart C. The last line of the Chart C (aircraft Basic Weight, moment, and CG) is the most current data and the baseline for all subsequent loading calculations on Forms F.

Since F-15Es are normally configured with CFTs...the CFTs would be added as to the TO-1-1B-50 Chart C as part of the Basic Aircraft for Weight and Balance. (I.E. "Permanent".) If they are removed...An annotation would either be made to the Chart C accounting for their removal or accounted for on the 365-4 Form F. (WT and Balance Clearance form)

 Since they are not "tanks" they are not listed as part of the F-15E SCLs. Since they are not Standard they are not listed as part of the F-15C SCLs.

The document says exactly what I have been telling you. For the terms of our discussion, CFTs are not a Normal or Standard loadout for F-15Cs. If they were they would have been listed as such.

[Woogey]

Sierra99,

I appreciate your experience and eye witness accounts of not ever seeing them.  This might be attributed to the locations that you were deployed to in combination with time frame.  In reality, none of this debate really matters.  The biggest thing for me as a customer and fan of the F-15C is, it’s a capability and an asset that was available to the  A/B/C/D community.  It is an option that should be available to the virtual community as well, if we as individuals want to equip our Eagles with them. If YOU don’t want to for whatever reason, that’s ok.  I want to have the option.  Especially for operations with liveries that should have them with the earlier compass grey paint schemes. I hope that ED gives us the option.  The development work for ED to add them, would not push back the release date, because we don’t have one.  It would set the new model apart from the existing FC model by yet another extra feature, giving the community just one more reason that they “need” this version.  Honestly, I wish that ED would “downgrade” the FC version to an A, concurrent with the release of the new C, just to give us even more variety.  
 

Edit: Fast Packs may be unicorns, well I’ve never seen a unicorn, but if I did, I wouldn’t berate it and mock it for being an abnormal horse that serves no purpose.  I would think cool, that’s something different, that you don’t see every day.  Something that sets it apart from all the others. In essence I welcome the additional capability

 

-Woog

Edited January 20 by Woogey

[Vampyre]

Cheesy 80's video about the 21st TFW. Some jets have the CFT's most don't. My suspicion is that the Air Force only procured less than 100 sets CFT's for the C/D Eagles. The 57th FIS was probably the only squadron with enough of them to equip every jet they had. The 43rd TFS and 54th TFS used them for certain, just not on every jet. I assume small numbers of CFT's were issued to units conducting air sovereignty missions. 

 

[Dragon1-1]

Still, they had it, and that's a fact that is rather difficult to dispute, unlike the true unicorn that the Eaglejet with air to ground weapons is. They might have been rare, but so was the 4xHARM loadout on the Viper. 

Given the status of the actual Mudhen, I wouldn't mind being able to turn the Charlie into an ersatz Mudhen at all.  That said, CFTs do have their uses on very long range air to air missions. The size of the maps is increasing, we'd have plenty of places to use these. Never say no to more gas.  

[Bremspropeller]

9 hours ago, Sierra99 said:

Actually I am going to correct you on this point...

You are correct. CFTs are not  mentioned for Strike Eagles in 21-202 not because they aren't tanks or loadouts. They are accounted for in the aircraft Basic Weight and Moment as computed using TO-1-1B-50 (Weight and Balance calculations). Specifically Chart "C".
 

Since F-15Es are normally configured with CFTs...the CFTs would be added as to the TO-1-1B-50 Chart C as part of the Basic Aircraft for Weight and Balance. (I.E. "Permanent".) If they are removed...An annotation would either be made to the Chart C accounting for their removal or accounted for on the 365-4 Form F. (WT and Balance Clearance form)

 Since they are not "tanks" they are not listed as part of the F-15E SCLs. Since they are not Standard they are not listed as part of the F-15C SCLs.

The document says exactly what I have been telling you. For the terms of our discussion, CFTs are not a Normal or Standard loadout for F-15Cs. If they were they would have been listed as such.

If the Fast Packs were on the jets, as they were on the 57th aircraft for about a decade each, they'd be accounted for in TO-1-1B-50 as well.

The document continues to say exactly nothing.

 

45 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

Cheesy 80's video about the 21st TFW. Some jets have the CFT's most don't. My suspicion is that the Air Force only procured less than 100 sets CFT's for the C/D Eagles. The 57th FIS was probably the only squadron with enough of them to equip every jet they had. The 43rd TFS and 54th TFS used them for certain, just not on every jet. I assume small numbers of CFT's were issued to units conducting air sovereignty missions. 

 

You're probably correct about that. I've been able to disprove my own "nose to tail batch off the factory" hypothesis by the mere fact that the FY80 jets would have been delivered before 1984. There's also pictoral evidence of one jet having a prior career without the CFTs.

Edited January 20 by Bremspropeller

[BIGNEWY]

A2A Fastpacks are not planned 

thank you 

[Sierra99]

On 1/20/2025 at 6:41 AM, Bremspropeller said:

If the Fast Packs were on the jets, as they were on the 57th aircraft for about a decade each, they'd be accounted for in TO-1-1B-50 as well.

 

 

You're probably correct about that. I've been able to disprove my own "nose to tail batch off the factory" hypothesis by the mere fact that the FY80 jets would have been delivered before 1984. There's also pictoral evidence of one jet having a prior career without the CFTs.

You're confusing the -50 with the SCL charts.

The -50 is a record of items that are Permanently or Semi Permanently attached to the aircraft...

Lets look at 21-202 again. At the very top of the first page it says 

"COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY"
 

Not recommended...not suggested...Mandatory.

The very first paragraph says "This instruction implements AFPD 21-2, Nonnuclear and Nuclear Munitions. It provides the single standard naming convention for aircraft configurations to be used within PACAF." According to the Header...This is mandatory.

Next is the summary of revisions
"This revision removes the existing numerically designated conventional loads formerly published in PAC AFI 21-202 and implements SCL naming conventions for all aircraft. This naming convention aligns with joint air operations standards developed for use in the Theater Battle Management Core System (TBMCS). SCL codes and individual unit matrices are at Attachment 1. Changes to this instruction are significant requiring a complete review."

This means if it's not listed...you can't load it.

Finally we get to Attachment 1 
"SCL COMPONENTS AND UNIT MATRICES"
Table A1.1. List of SCL components.

Scroll all the way down to the end of the instruction. Conformal Tanks are not listed one single time. 

They are not listed for the F-15E's because they are considered "Part of the Aircraft" and accounted for in the Chart C. They are not listed for the F-15C's because they were not regularly used and they were not part of any standard configuration standard according to this regulation. They could not be used "at will" as others maintain because the instruction specifically states "Changes to this instruction are significant requiring a complete review."
 

Quote

The document continues to say exactly nothing.

21-202 actually ends the discussion. The previous version of PACAFI 21-202, dated 1 August 1997. lists 610 gallon drop tanks not CFTs in the F-15C SCLs. PACAFI 21-202, dated 9 May 2003 lists "1 Tank, 2 Tanks, 3 Tanks not CFTs in the F-15C SCLs. Basically CFTs did not exist because they were not included in the SCL listing.

I am trying to locate older wing documents for Kef and Elmendorf. They might contain specific instructions permitting / directing the use of CFTs...but that action would been coordinated through HQ PACAF/DOTW.

 

https://users.libero.it/ulisse31/PACAF 21-202.pdf

[Bremspropeller]

14 minutes ago, Sierra99 said:

The -50 is a record of items that are Permanently or Semi Permanently attached to the aircraft...

That's exactly what I wrote and implied. Hence my reference to the 57th FIS, flying the packs for over a decade.

14 minutes ago, Sierra99 said:

They are not listed for the F-15E's because they are considered "Part of the Aircraft" and accounted for in the Chart C. They are not listed for the F-15C's because they were not regularly used and they were not part of any standard configuration standard according to this regulation

That's an assumption on your part.

The FAST packs, just like the CFTs, are (semi) permanent eqipment on the jet and are to be accounted for in the W&B report - precisely because you'd not slap them on or off just prior to a mission. You'd attach them to a group of jets due to a special mission requirement for a period of time. As seen with the 57th FIS.

Or even longer, if you're looking at the IDF and RSAF.

15 minutes ago, Sierra99 said:

21-202 actually ends the discussion. The previous version of PACAFI 21-202, dated 1 August 1997. lists 610 gallon drop tanks not CFTs in the F-15C SCLs. PACAFI 21-202, dated 9 May 2003 lists "1 Tank, 2 Tanks, 3 Tanks not CFTs in the F-15C SCLs. Basically CFTs did not exist because they were not included in the SCL listing.

It doesn't, unless you'll assume the rules applying to the Echoes for some reason aren't applying to the Charlies.

[Sierra99]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

It doesn't, unless you'll assume the rules applying to the Echoes for some reason aren't applying to the Charlies.

Yes...It does. And I not assuming anything...It's a fact.

F-15Es are delivered from the factory with CFTs. They are part of the Basic Aircraft Weight and Moment for each aircraft and are accounted for in the individual aircraft Chart C because each aircraft is a little different and they do not normally operate without them. Period.

F-15Cs are not and were not delivered with CFTs. They are not part of the Basic Weight and Moment for each aircraft because they do not normally operate WITH them. Period.

Since 21-202 does not list CFTs as part of ANY Standard Configuration Load (SCL) and "Changes to this instruction are significant requiring a complete review"...They are not Standard or Normal loadouts. They are not Authorized for use.

Period.

Now, obviously the 57th used them. And I guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt their use was coordinated through HQ PACAF/DOTW before they did it. It might have been a 57th FIS supplement to 21-202...it might have been a Base Operating Instruction that prescribed in detail the requirements for use. Same goes for the Alaska units. But the simple fact is they didn't just decide it was a good idea...go out and find some CFTs nobody was using and start using them. Somebody approved their use. Israeli and Saudi Charlies are a completely different subject because they don't fall under OUR regulations. (Apples and Oranges) When a regulation says compliance is mandatory...it's not a suggestion. People get fired or die for things like that. If it's not listed in a regulation...It does not exist.

I'm kinda done arguing with you. I have 22 years of experience actually dealing with and understanding Air Force Operating Instructions and Weight and Balance procedures. I have taught weight and balance computations to students in a classroom setting and on cargo missions actually loading cargo. Unless you can match that experience...You simply don't know what you are talking about as far as how the Air Force computes Weight and Balance or loads weapons. 

So here's the deal...You find me a USAF regulation stating CFTs are cleared for Normal Operations on USAF F-15Cs...I'll accept your word. You find me a Wing or base Operating Instruction for someplace other than Alaska or Kef directing the use of CFTs I'll eat my words.

But until then I stand by my statements.

Good luck here, I'm done.

[Bremspropeller]

54 minutes ago, Sierra99 said:

I'm kinda done arguing with you. I have 22 years of experience actually dealing with and understanding Air Force Operating Instructions and Weight and Balance procedures. I have taught weight and balance computations to students in a classroom setting and on cargo missions actually loading cargo. Unless you can match that experience...You simply don't know what you are talking about as far as how the Air Force computes Weight and Balance or loads weapons. 

And I'm working for a regulator, reading and approving manuals on a daily basis - most of them directly tied to aircraft maintenance or maintenance organisations. Before that a couple of years working in maintenance itself. That includes (drums intensifying!) Weight and Balance calculations and actual weighing following configuration changes. On top of that I've flown aircraft myself before and I hold a dispatcher's certificate. On top of that I hold two degrees in Aerospace Engineering.

So let's just assume for a second you're not the only guy who's read a manual or spoken about W&B in his life.

54 minutes ago, Sierra99 said:

F-15Es are delivered from the factory with CFTs. They are part of the Basic Aircraft Weight and Moment for each aircraft and are accounted for in the individual aircraft Chart C because each aircraft is a little different and they do not normally operate without them. Period.

F-15Cs are not and were not delivered with CFTs. They are not part of the Basic Weight and Moment for each aircraft because they do not normally operate WITH them. Period.

And when a FAST pack is attached to the jet, the new basic weight and moment data is updated. That's because it's a configuration change and not a loadout.

It's also going to stay on the jet for a while. Because somebody obviously approved it. And if it does, it's not found under the loadouts, as it's part of the current, updated basic configuration. That config change includes supplementing data in other manuals. Like supplements to the dash one (e.g.drag index data for mission planning) or MX related manuals.

54 minutes ago, Sierra99 said:

Now, obviously the 57th used them. And I guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt their use was coordinated through HQ PACAF/DOTW before they did it. It might have been a 57th FIS supplement to 21-202...it might have been a Base Operating Instruction that prescribed in detail the requirements for use.

...or it's just a simple weighing with a redetermination of the new W&B data (including CoG shift d/t fuel burn if applicable), entered into the aircraft's docs after the installation of the packs. Supplement a couple of manuals with the correct updated data and you're good to go.

Actually quite a no-brainer. You can do that for a whole squadron of jets in less than a day if you've prepared correctly.

54 minutes ago, Sierra99 said:

Same goes for the Alaska units. But the simple fact is they didn't just decide it was a good idea...go out and find some CFTs nobody was using and start using them. Somebody approved their use. Israeli and Saudi Charlies are a completely different subject because they don't fall under OUR regulations. (Apples and Oranges) When a regulation says compliance is mandatory...it's not a suggestion. People get fired or die for things like that. If it's not listed in a regulation...It does not exist.

I'm gonna steal that if you don't mind.

Edited January 26 by Bremspropeller

[draconus]

On 1/19/2025 at 3:36 AM, Sierra99 said:

In those 22 years I can tell you for fact I never saw a single F-15C model fitted with Conformal tanks.

Not that it proves anything or it's not appreciated, no offence, but you'd think...

 

[Miro]

f-15C with fastpacks is far more realistic than F-35A we get, and Blackshark 3 we have, personaly i think problem is a flight model, because with fastpacks flight characteristics changes dramatically, so two different FM will be needed.

Edited January 27 by Miro

[felixx75]

23 hours ago, Miro said:

so two different FM will be needed

And that's only one reason, why it won't happen.

Edited January 28 by felixx75

[Wizard_03]

2 hours ago, felixx75 said:

And that's only one reason, why it won't happen.

Yeah double the amount of work, for something a single squadron used in an area not yet represented in the sim. I don't blame them. 

[felixx75]

There was already the same discussion about the F-15E, only the other way around (removable CFTs). The answer there was also no (among other things because of the 2 necessary flight models).

Actually, that's almost laughable. With the F-15E people wanted removable CFT's to improve performance in air combat because it's not an F-15C and now people want CFT's because the F-15C we're getting doesn't have them...
I can only repeat myself, we always want what we don't have or don't get.

Edited January 28 by felixx75

[Sierra99]

On 1/28/2025 at 3:19 PM, felixx75 said:

There was already the same discussion about the F-15E, only the other way around (removable CFTs). The answer there was also no (among other things because of the 2 necessary flight models).

Actually, that's almost laughable. With the F-15E people wanted removable CFT's to improve performance in air combat because it's not an F-15C and now people want CFT's because the F-15C we're getting doesn't have them...
I can only repeat myself, we always want what we don't have or don't get.

For me it is the simple fact that despite what people here want to believe...The USAF simply did not use them on the F-15C as widely as people want to believe. This is a direct quote from an article written by the Commander of Air Forces Iceland in 1990...
 

Quote

At the present time, the 57th FIS is the only USAF squadron flying all F-l5s equipped with conformal fuel tanks as the standard operating configuration. Tanks are not downloaded for any mission, but a CFT fueling "lockout" procedure is used when a complete fuel load may not be desired

With all due respect...I'm gonna take his word and my firsthand experience of never seeing one in 22 years over the opinions of those here who maintain otherwise. 

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, Sierra99 said:

With all due respect...I'm gonna take his word and my firsthand experience of never seeing one in 22 years over the opinions of those here who maintain otherwise. 

Apologies! But you don't get it do you? People want the possibility because it was possible. ED has said "No", so there's that.

Cheers! 

[Wizard_03]

On 1/28/2025 at 1:19 PM, felixx75 said:

There was already the same discussion about the F-15E, only the other way around (removable CFTs). The answer there was also no (among other things because of the 2 necessary flight models).

Actually, that's almost laughable. With the F-15E people wanted removable CFT's to improve performance in air combat because it's not an F-15C and now people want CFT's because the F-15C we're getting doesn't have them...
I can only repeat myself, we always want what we don't have or don't get.

I was there for that discussion as well, and its very laughable. I personally wanted them to give us the option when I thought that the F-15C was out of the picture. Now that we are gonna get one this is much better outcome, as we don't need to use the FF F-15E as a stand in. We can have the best of both worlds. (Assuming the F-15E ever gets finished that is) But honestly if your using the F-15C in the A2A role as it should be. The CFTs are undesirable as they have a big effect on performance. More so then on the strike eagle even as the albino only gets 220 motors instead of the big 229s that the E has so you'd be sacrificing a lot for just more range, and since there are no maps that would even support that extra range (yet) its not really doing anything for you.

And well its true the USAF used to use CFTs on F-15C for one or two squadrons they certainly had stopped using them by the mid 2000s in any case. So other then cos-playing Israeli F-15s the CFTs serve no purpose in the sim today other then to completely degrade the eagles WVR chops.

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

since there are no maps that would even support that extra range (yet) its not really doing anything for you

I can see Marianas or SA as easy example. It does not even have to be about range. It can be for longer CAP time. Also the range quickly shrinks if you need to intercept in AB. So the maps are not a problem.