MiG-29 - The good, the bad, and the ugly

[av8orDave]

First, the good: ED has done an outstanding job of modeling the Fulcrum. The visuals look great, the performance feels right, and it provides a great suspension of disbelief; it feels like you’re in an early 4th gen fighter.

The bad: I’ve always suspected, read, heard that the 4th gen Russian aircraft were high performance, short legged, and barely more advanced than a household microwave. They could climb and turn as well as anything, but could do so for barely any time, and were so primitive they wouldn’t be effective in a peer to peer environment.

The ugly: The sim confirms the bad. The radar is barely functional, the cockpit ergonomics are horrendous, and the RWR is basically just a noisemaker with flashing lights. 

So, having said the above, I think the MiG is going to take a ton of practice in order to be able to use effectively.

[Cgjunk2]

The other option besides trying to learn how to use it effectively, is to just pretend you’re a billionaire with enough disposable money to buy and feed your own mig-29.  Then just fly the jet with total abandon, roll coal, and make very, very expensive holes in the sky.  This plane has the perfect FM for that!  

[Harlikwin]

So, I think ED got the RWR wrong in the regard that the SPO 15 was not "blind" in the frontal arc, there is a maintenance doc that talks about properly "blanking"/synching the SPO-15 when using the radar.

But I think this maintenance tended not to be done by some allied countries (or they lacked spare parts), and the reversion mode just shuts it off if its out of synch. 

There is also a serbian account of a mig29 pilot that was trying to lock up a western jet when his RWR went off and he was able to evade the missile.

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Harlikwin

[av8orDave]

Just saying… it is easy to see how the F-15 has been the end of many MiG-29’s… and why the roles were never reversed.

[Harlikwin]

1 minute ago, av8orDave said:

Just saying… it is easy to see how the F-15 has been the end of many MiG-29’s… and why the roles were never reversed.

Well "a few 29's" but yeah. And at least in the gulf and the balkans the F15's were mostly still "cold war" era (ish). But most people don't realize that all the fancy radar modes etc on the F15 only came in the late 80's. So, early on it would have been a bit more challenging for NATO. Not to mention there were only 2-3 squadrons of F15's in europe total. 

Per soviet doctrine, 29's weren't supposed to fight F15's anyway unless it was a GCI directed ambush. 

Vipers are another story.

 

 

 

[av8orDave]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

Well "a few 29's" but yeah. And at least in the gulf and the balkans the F15's were mostly still "cold war" era (ish). But most people don't realize that all the fancy radar modes etc on the F15 only came in the late 80's. So, early on it would have been a bit more challenging for NATO. Not to mention there were only 2-3 squadrons of F15's in europe total. 

Per soviet doctrine, 29's weren't supposed to fight F15's anyway unless it was a GCI directed ambush. 

Vipers are another story.

 

 

 

Best I can find, the -15 has downed seven MiG-29’s in total (5 in Desert Storm, 2 in Kosovo). 

My big takeaway from the DCS module so far is that the avionics are just stunningly bad… the radar is pretty rough and the RWR is almost useless. The HMD is pretty cool and adds some nice capability within visual range, if you can manage to survive that long. 

[Kuky]

Hm, I agree about ED probably modelling the RWR badly by adding this  inability to use it while radar is on, I think this effect is not how they came by default but by lack of maintenance, so I think ED should change this to match the intended/default function of it and not the effect of lack of maintenance as it is now. If it stays like it is now RWR is pretty much useless and maybe I'm wrong but I just can't see the logic of why Soviet engineers would make the 29 like this from factory as it makes use of RWR on 29 pretty much irrelevant.

[352ndOscar]

 

Quote

Not to mention there were only 2-3 squadrons of F15's in europe total.

CORRECTION:

• 36th Fighter Wing, at Bitburg Air Base, GE
  • 22d Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (BT
  • 53d Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (BT)
  • 525th Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (BT)
• 32nd Fighter Squadron, at Soesterberg AB,
  • 32nd Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (CR)
• 48th Fighter Wing – RAF Lakenheath, UK
  • 492d Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (LN)
  • 493d Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (LN)
  • 494th Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (LN)

168 F-15C authorized…..

Edited 16 hours ago by 352ndOscar

[SAM77]

Radar is pretty much useless online MP. Not as bad in the instant action missions. SPO lock tone is brutal to my ears even at low volume. Well aware it's EA so no biggie. Everything else is superb!

[Dudikoff]

8 hours ago, Kuky said:

If it stays like it is now RWR is pretty much useless and maybe I'm wrong but I just can't see the logic of why Soviet engineers would make the 29 like this from factory as it makes use of RWR on 29 pretty much irrelevant.

Unless it's something they couldn't solve at that moment and left it for later (like e.g. the TWF mode sometimes overwhelming the Ts100 computer, which was fixed with Ts100M, IIRC).

But, yeah, this sounds like something that should be made optional as it was definitely not designed to work like this.

Edited 8 hours ago by Dudikoff

[TotenDead]

Did I get it right And you compare 9.12 with the F-16C from 2005? Just FYI, there is a 20 year gap between the planes. And, for comparison reasons, the F-4E we have is only 10 years older than the MiG. Maybe it would be wiser to compare the 9.12 to the phantom

[bies]

Our Soviet 1983 MiG-29 9.12 would be a counterpart for the F-16C Block 25 from 1984 or even F-16A Block 15 from 1981, maybe an F/A-18A from 1983. To some extend F-14A and F-15C from 1970s/early 1980s.

But this are not really a strict counterparts as both countries had vastly different doctrines, due to many reasons. F-4 entered service in 1962, our upgraded variant in 1972 but in its core it was still a late 1950s 2nd generation design. No point looking for a direct counterparts though.

Our MiG-29 9.12 is suited for all the late Cold War scenarios at its prime; 1980s Europe over divided Germany map, Desert Storm over Iraq/Kuwait. And 1990s Ethipia-Erithrea war, Balkan wars and more, it's i limited use even today, often non modernized since 1980s. It's a lot, arguably the hottest and most content packed period in DCS.

[TotenDead]

22 минуты назад, bies сказал:

 

Our MiG-29 9.12 is suited for all the late Cold War scenarios at its prime; 1980s Europe over divided Germany map, Desert Storm over Iraq/Kuwait. And 1990s Ethipia-Erithrea war, Balkan wars and more, it's i limited use even today, often non modernized since 1980s. It's a lot, arguably the hottest and most content packed period in DCS.

And... The most empty one with only a handful jets suitable for DS and mid-to-late 80s

[Bremspropeller]

Most european F-16s would have been A models, apart from some USAFE early C models in the mid to mid-late 80s (say 84 to 88 timeframe). Modernisation ramped up slowly on both sides and WarPac (non GSSD) 29s only came online in 88/89, so just shortly before the Iron Curtain fell.

GSSD 29s also slowly replaced 23s and 25s, right up 'till 89 (Zerbst getting 29s in '88, Altenburg recieving Fulcrums in mid'89).

[Bremspropeller]

Looks like Damgarten, Köthen and Finow also only recieved Fulcrums in '89.

That would leave Wittstock, Merseburg and Falkenberg as the premier "mid 80s" Fulcrum airfields.

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Bremspropeller

[Hatman335]

12 hours ago, 352ndOscar said:

 

CORRECTION:

• 36th Fighter Wing, at Bitburg Air Base, GE
  • 22d Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (BT
  • 53d Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (BT)
  • 525th Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (BT)
• 32nd Fighter Squadron, at Soesterberg AB,
  • 32nd Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (CR)
• 48th Fighter Wing – RAF Lakenheath, UK
  • 492d Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (LN)
  • 493d Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (LN)
  • 494th Fighter Squadron, with 24x F-15C Eagle (LN)

168 F-15C authorized…..

Fake news, the 492nd and 494th never got F-15Cs and the 493rd only transitioned to the Eagle after the Cold War ended in 1993. 

[352ndOscar]

1 hour ago, Hatman335 said:

Fake news, the 492nd and 494th never got F-15Cs and the 493rd only transitioned to the Eagle after the Cold War ended in 1993. 

I won't quibble...  Yes, the 492nd and 494th got F-15Es versus Cs.  The poster, however, did not specify a time period.  He said, "ever"; and Es are every bit as capable of taking out MiG-29s as the Cs.

[MickV]

Agreed fully that the look, sound & feel of the module are absolutely phenomenal. ED knocked it out of the park there. But also that the avionics are such that the module may become an extremely niche product with limited sales. 

Full fidelity is obviously the gold standard for a flight sim, but given that DCS is still a game, players also need a few breaks here and there to make up for the tools that actual pilots would have, that we don't. (Ie GCI for Redfor planes)

The SPO-15 being effectively worthless at generating any sort of useful threat indications seems likely to limit the DCS MiG-29 to 1v1 WVR dogfights, and self-made SP missions with players making liberal use of F10 to generate SA.

I have a hard time imagining a playable MiG-29 campaign, if the player has little to no warning of any attack by an AI with a BVR weapon. 

[Volator]

10 minutes ago, MickV said:

Full fidelity is obviously the gold standard for a flight sim, but given that DCS is still a game, players also need a few breaks here and there to make up for the tools that actual pilots would have, that we don't. (Ie GCI for Redfor planes)

The SPO-15 being effectively worthless at generating any sort of useful threat indications seems likely to limit the DCS MiG-29 to 1v1 WVR dogfights, and self-made SP missions with players making liberal use of F10 to generate SA.

For SP, maybe. However, a new sort of GCI has been promised by ED.

In MP, good squadrons have GCI. The MiG-29, like all other fighters, was not meant to fly lone-wolf. That is one of the issues with how we use to play MP in a very unrealistic way. Join a virtual squadron, you are not going to regret it.

[Hatman335]

1 hour ago, 352ndOscar said:

I won't quibble...  Yes, the 492nd and 494th got F-15Es versus Cs.  The poster, however, did not specify a time period.  He said, "ever"; and Es are every bit as capable of taking out MiG-29s as the Cs.

That's not what he said, his comments were about the late 80s, where this is absolutely true. And the E is worse at BFM than the C or the Mig-29. But in any case that doesn't really matter, since before the end of the Cold War, the number of F-15s in Europe was lower than many people think. The Mig-29 very realistically could have gone against F-4Es, F-4Fs, F-16As and yeah a handful of F-15Cs, but that wasn't the primary air superiority fighter of NATO in Europe when it comes to raw numbers.