FC2 A2A Changes

[GGTharos]

Wags has given me the ok to discuss this, so I'd like to bring you up to speed on what has been done with missiles and ECM.

 

ECM:

 

 

• 15s start-up any time you power the ECM on
  
• Burn through moved out
  
• 25-28nm for fighters with older ECM
  
• 23-24nm for fighters with newer ECM
  
• 12nm for strategic and tactical bombers featuring powerful ECM sets
  

 

Missiles:

 

 

• Fuzes have been given more realistic triggering distances - the most powerful are the AIM-120 and R-77.
  
• Speeds and ranges have been adjusted to create a good relative representation of these missiles with respect to each other based on real data and corroboration from people in the know. AIM-9 has specifically been significantly sped up, and is almost equal in range and speed to the R-73. This adjustment was done according to RL speed-time-altitude charts for the AIM-9L. For radar guided missiles, the basic range setup is: AIM-7/R-27R < R-77/AIM-120B < AIM-120C < R-27ER.
  
• ARH missiles will now track down to very low altitude. No more <10m safe zone.
  
• Very significant resistance of radar missiles to chaff unless you put them on your 3-9.
  
• Chaff resistance is AIM-120C > Other ARH > SARH
  
• Reduced seeker gimbal limits for radar missiles. Again, here ARH are better than SARH.
  
• Heat Seekers will not search for targets if launched without a seeker lock. This means launching any heat-seeker without seeker lock will cause that missile to be wasted
  
• You must now hold the trigger for a short time in order for a missile to launch
  
• The missile proximity fuze is inhibited for a very short time when the missile launches.
  

 

AI changes:

 

AI will now notch with an accuracy corresponding to their skill. This means that while an excellent AI can lose most of your missiles, an average AI will most likely be hit. While the note on this may be short, the change in gameplay is big.

 

 

Basic Aircraft changes:

 

 

• F-15C now has an IFF HUD cue for the PDT/STT target
  
• The MiG-29C will now have a default payload of 6xR-77
  
• Aircraft flight models adjusted to conform as much as possible to their realistic climb and acceleration capabilities, as well as turning ability.
  
• MiG-29C should turn better than in FC1
  
• F-15C now has an energy model based on the -220 engines.
  
• All flyable fighter aircraft will now be able to go supersonic with their full payload. The exact top speed depends on what you hang on your wings.
  
• Realistic G-Loc model returned to be more realistic. You can sustain a medium to high-g battle for a long time, but if you abuse it and try to hold 8+ for long you're in trouble. Doing a 'g-warm up exercise' for 15-20 sec at 5g or so will better prepare you for a high-g fight, increasing your tolerance to high-g for a few minutes.
  

 

 

What is the effect effect of these changes on game play?

 

In general, the idea was to encourage a player to turn away from a missile in order to defeat it.

You will notice changes in how missiles behave with respect to chaff especially. For SARH, I would recommend to launch salvoes of two missiles; chaff is not likely to decoy both of them. The best defense is a notch and orthogonal roll, but this means the defender gives up the fight and the attacker has complete advantage - as it should be.

Aircraft using SARH vs. ARH equipped aircraft will naturally be at disadvantage, however the notch and otherwise beaming ARH missiles and using decoys at an appropriate distance will work.

The longer fuzes mean that maneuvering to dodge the missiles kinematically is now riskier.

 

The best chances of survival are a combination of beaming, maneuvering and countermeasures.

 

Note that I am not talking about long-ranged shots, as those tend to be easier to defeat.

 

 

I'd like to add that Wags, Yoda and myself campaigned to get much more robust counter-measure rejection (chaff resistance, performance, pk, anything else you'd like to call it ;) ) for SARH missiles in order to not make things both more realistic and not so horribly lopsided. There may have been others but I don't hear and know everything. :)

 

You will find that SARH chaff-resistance is such that someone who could before easily chaff away all your missiles, will have to try extremely hard to decoy just half of them. Note that this is for head-on or near-head-on engagements.

 

Overall, all these changes, including visibility as well, will mean that the BVR engagements will now be moved further out. In addition, most BVR kills will now be beyond visual range in terms of simple head to head engagements, especially at medium and high altitude.

Edited March 24, 2010 by GGTharos

[Krippz]

This is amazing. Awesome work guys. Kudos to ED, the testers and TFC.

[Mustang]

Thanks GG, great information ;)

 

"ARH missiles will now track down to very low altitude. No more <10m safe zone."

 

THIS will be awesome, especially against those who like to fly like that over the water :)

Edited March 24, 2010 by Mustang

[RvEYoda]

I'd like to add that Wags, Yoda and myself campaigned to get much more robust counter-measure rejection (chaff resistance, performance, pk, anything else you'd like to call it ;) ) for SARH missiles in order to not make things both more realistic and not so horribly lopsided. There may have been others but I don't hear and know everything. :)

 

I want to emphasize that we pushed really hard for this, so that flying the Su27 with

only SARH missiles would not be pointless.

 

The idea is "Someone fires at you? - Defend!", and this should be true for all types of missiles,

even though ofc some missiles do have better CM rejection than other types.

 

Dont want to see this again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3lGvfVxuBs

Edited March 24, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[104th_Crunch]

Wow. Thanks for the update GG and for your's and all the others hard work. Still have to soak it all up to discuss at properly :), but it sounds like the ER with it's long range and the reduced chaff resistance will be pretty lethal. Looks like the Eagle drivers will not have it so easy after all. First shoot, first kill will be the priority.

 

"ARH missiles will now track down to very low altitude. No more <10m safe zone."

 

What about SARH missiles and SAMs? Are missiles any less effective down low to simulate clutter? Wow, no more 10M flying. Very cool.

[Nate--IRL--]

I was never too good at Multiplayer A2A in my trusty Su, Looks like I'm gonna be finding it even more of a challenge now.

 

These are welcome changes nonetheless.

 

Nate

[GGTharos]

Wow. Thanks for the update GG and for your's and all the others hard work. Still have to soak it all up to discuss at properly :), but it sounds like the ER with it's long range and the reduced chaff resistance will be pretty lethal. Looks like the Eagle drivers will not have it so easy after all. First shoot, first kill will be the priority.

 

Indeed the ER is longer ranged (more importantly, faster) but the ARH carrier will always have the advantage. You have to get yourself in a position where you will indeed be getting the first shot by a good margin. Don't think it will be a piece of cake for flanker - but they will not be anything near harmless or defenseless :)

 

"ARH missiles will now track down to very low altitude. No more <10m safe zone."

 

What about SARH missiles and SAMs? Are missiles any less effective down low to simulate clutter? Wow, no more 10M flying. Very cool.

 

No, SARH and SAMs are still vulnerable to this. However, the principal carrier of SARH being the flanker, it also carries ETs which should deal with the offender at a reasonable range. In the case people fly this low too often, I recommend turning up bird collisions ;)

[X-man]

Thanks for the info! :)

[Maximus]

wow, Now we will have a real intense dogfighting...and no more safe zone for 10m or below and bird Collision will stop from those who likes to fly too low.

 

now it is almost nearly impossible to fly low that often.:doh:

[Konovalov]

This all sounds very promising. Just viewed the Mig29 v AMRAAM video on ED Youtube site. I'm thinking about giving up mud moving for this air to air stuff.

[GGTharos]

I should add that mud-movers would be smart to verse themselves well in missile evasion and in fact, outright radar evasion ... online I see many A2G guys screaming for escort while flying straight into the FEBA fat dumb and happy.

 

You aren't defenseless, guys. Just put some effort and patience into it! :P

[Antartis]

Nice!

[ToWcH]

look at this rediculous video, i am really upset :(

[GGTharos]

You shouldn't be. A real player would reposition much better. AI don't flight quite so well as a real person.

[Grimes]

• 25-28nm for fighters with older ECM
  
• 23-24nm for fighters with newer ECM
  
• 12nm for strategic and tactical bombers featuring powerful ECM sets
  

 

 

Can you give an example of which fighters have older/ newer ECM and tactical bombers?

[A.S]

Wags has given me the ok to discuss this, so I'd like to bring you up to speed on what has been done with missiles and ECM.

 

ECM:

 

 

• 15s start-up any time you power the ECM on
  
• Burn through moved out
  
• 25-28nm for fighters with older ECM
  
• 23-24nm for fighters with newer ECM
  
• 12nm for strategic and tactical bombers featuring powerful ECM sets
  

 

Missiles:

 

 

• Fuzes have been given more realistic triggering distances - the most powerful are the AIM-120 and R-77.
  
• Speeds and ranges have been adjusted to create a good relative representation of these missiles with respect to each other based on real data and corroboration from people in the know. AIM-9 has specifically been significantly sped up, and is almost equal in range and speed to the R-73. This adjustment was done according to RL speed-time-altitude charts for the AIM-9L. For radar guided missiles, the basic range setup is: AIM-7/R-27R < R-77/AIM-120B < AIM-120C < R-27ER.
  
• ARH missiles will now track down to very low altitude. No more <10m safe zone.
  
• Very significant resistance of radar missiles to chaff unless you put them on your 3-9.
  
• Chaff resistance is AIM-120C > Other ARH > SARH
  
• Reduced seeker gimbal limits for radar missiles. Again, here ARH are better than SARH.
  
• Heat Seekers will not search for targets if launched without a seeker lock. This means launching any heat-seeker without seeker lock will cause that missile to be wasted
  
• You must now hold the trigger for a short time in order for a missile to launch
  
• The missile proximity fuze is inhibited for a very short time when the missile launches.
  

 

What is the effect effect of these changes on game play?

 

In general, the idea was to encourage a player to turn away from a missile in order to defeat it.

You will notice changes in how missiles behave with respect to chaff especially. For SARH, I would recommend to launch salvoes of two missiles; chaff is not likely to decoy both of them. The best defense is a notch and orthogonal roll, but this means the defender gives up the fight and the attacker has complete advantage - as it should be.

Aircraft using SARH vs. ARH equipped aircraft will naturally be at disadvantage, however the notch and otherwise beaming ARH missiles and using decoys at an appropriate distance will work.

The longer fuzes mean that maneuvering to dodge the missiles kinematically is now riskier.

 

The best chances of survival are a combination of beaming, maneuvering and countermeasures.

 

Note that I am not talking about long-ranged shots, as those tend to be easier to defeat.

 

 

I'd like to add that Wags, Yoda and myself campaigned to get much more robust counter-measure rejection (chaff resistance, performance, pk, anything else you'd like to call it ;) ) for SARH missiles in order to not make things both more realistic and not so horribly lopsided. There may have been others but I don't hear and know everything. :)

 

You will find that SARH chaff-resistance is such that someone who could before easily chaff away all your missiles, will have to try extremely hard to decoy just half of them. Note that this is for head-on or near-head-on engagements.

 

:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Maybe older/newer was a bad term. Let's say more/less powerful for now.

In terms of the flyables, the MiG has the weakest jammer and the Eagle and Flanker the most powerful.

 

Tactical bombers are aircraft such as the Su-24 or F-111.

 

Can you give an example of which fighters have older/ newer ECM and tactical bombers?

[ToWcH]

AI...my mistake GGTharos :)

[PoleCat]

Excellent post!

 

Thanks Wags, Yoda and GG. Well done.

 

Out

Edited March 25, 2010 by PoleCat

[CVFSGoran_VU]

ECM:

 

 

• 15s start-up any time you power the ECM on
  
• Burn through moved out
  
• 25-28nm for fighters with older ECM
  
• 23-24nm for fighters with newer ECM
  
• 12nm for strategic and tactical bombers featuring powerful ECM sets
  

 

Hi there! Just to check did I understand it corect Burn throught is moved out so radar can't ever lock some target and get information about it, regardless how close it is?

[GGTharos]

No, you understood wrong. It can lock a target farther out than in FC1.

[Frostie]

Thanks GG, looking forward to this fresh BVR environment. :thumbup:

[RvEYoda]

look at this rediculous video, i am really upset :(

 

The problem is not necessarily the move, but lack of time to code a new RWR with less

than perfect threat ranging. FC2 is an improvement, but nothing is perfect.

 

Still, that move there will meet with certain death if another missile is coming

from another angle or the eagle fires two missiles with some spacing.

 

Fuzes have been extended(For ARH 8->15m), but yes this move is still possible

if executed perfectly. Last second jinks can work, as is also known from real missile

simluation data (the problem here is the perfect rangin RWR), however with the improved

fuzes you will likely not see many players attempt this indefinitely against multiple missiles,

certainly not infinite MP barrel rolls :)

Edited March 25, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Aeroscout]

The problem is not the move, the problem is that no time to code a new RWR with less

than perfect threat ranging ;)

 

FC2 is an improvement, but nothing is perfect.

 

Still, that move there will meet with certain death if another missile is coming

from another angle or the eagle fires two missiles with some spacing.

 

Fuzes have been extended(For ARH 8->15m), but yes this move is still possible

if executed perfectly. Last second jinks can work, as is also known from real missile

simluation data (the problem here is the perfect rangin RWR), however with the improved

fuzes you will likely not see many players attempt this indefinitely against multiple missiles,

certainly not infinite MP barrel rolls :)

I take it these techniques have been tested rigorously?

 

This is looking great guys. Looking like a great online environment for both eagle and flanker pilots! However, the best part is most definitely the required valid heat-seeker lock for a guided heater launch. No more spammed ETs.

 

Looking forward to my R-27ER upgrade! I like the different levels of ECM as well!

 

Aero

[RvEYoda]

Here is a (perhaps little old but still) useful unclassified document from USAF on missile

evasion teqniques and the possible results of such.

 

It is suggested that quick jinks are more powerful than for example

long sustained turns or barrel rolls for that matter

GetTRDoc.pdf