BMP-3 AAA?

[Zad Fnark]

I first came across the other day with the German Marders.

 

My only question (as reiterated before) would be how well a gunner using the optics on any given IFV can acquire a (relatively) fast moving fixed-wing aircraft.

 

I know on the M2/M3 the commander has an external sight and Stalevar mentioned an AA setup for the BMPs, so those are feasible. But does this work across the board?

 

ZF-

[MadTommy]

I think its a good thing and to my advantage. I don't find them that dangerous and it does help me locate them. But I have found myself flying higher in FC2, mainly due to the need to use CCRP bombing for my favourite cluster bombs. I don't recall being taken out by a BMP whilst using cannons on them, I'm sure they have caused some holes and scrapes to the paint job.

[Spetz]

It's actually fairly easy to acquire and track fast movers. I was a serving Air Defence soldier for 14 years, qualified GDF-005, ADATS, Skyguard and Javelin missile system. Using passive radar we could pick up an aircraft, and then manually track it easily or autotrack if needed. Even if the AC is, say 450-500 kts, at a distance the AC really doesn't seem that fast. Even with the GDF without radar handoff, the electric drives, cross wind sensor and lead angle computation enable us to track AC visually, and fire electrically (present number of seconds = number of rounds) or manually (foot pedal = fire until autoloaders take over).

 

In regards to the BMP 3, it can elevate it's barrell to 60 degrees, of course being on a reverse slope will make it even more. It also has a ballistic computer, cross wind sensor, stab system and laser ranger..I (IMHO) believe it is very possible. I'm not sure the max slant angle for the 30mm, but put enough lead up there, something's bound to hit it eventually.

[Spetz]

I'm not sure the max slant angle for the 30mm

 

 

Sorry, can't edit at work.. I meant max slant range

[evilnate]

Personally I like how the BMP-3 is more of a challenge. It's not as dangerous as the ZSU-23, but dangerous enough to make you respect a convoy with them in it.

 

In MP, approach them in trail formation and let the leader distract while the trailer is the shooter.

[Boberro]

BMP-2s are so dangerous now! Often their one shot and you loose engines... Better don't run on it with cannon :D

[graywo1fg]

some of the BMP's being incredibly accurate could have been a mission setting them to high skill... BUT isnt is SO COOL now that all of the targets fight back? i mean in LOMAC it was like shooting fish in a barrel unless on the edge of the barrel there was a strella..... but now the combat environment is much more challenging I LOVE IT!!!1 :)

[Bucic]

BMP-2s are so dangerous now! Often their one shot and you loose engines... Better don't run on it with cannon :D

In Black Shark you learn best that BMP-2 has the same cannon you have but it has better armor, it's more STABLE and it doesn't have to worry about vortex ring :D

[Wolfala]

Ironhand's tutorial on taking out ZSU-23 works on BMP's as well. Fire for about 1 second burst at 1.0km range and break off at 0.9km range. Works everytime for me.

 

 

Not for nothing, but seeing as i'm getting reliably zapped past 2000 meters. The BMP-2 at 72 degrees elevation, of which they always are in pairs - is a bit much. I'm not playing a Stuka - b/c if I blow my pure vert pass as you suppose - I get everything shot off by his tank mate on the egress.

[dok_rp]

I haven't tested it with the BMP3 yet, but the BMP2 is ridiculously accurate at hitting me while diving at them for a straffing run.

 

It makes the GAU8 of little use as you have to fire from more than 1km away and the dispersion at that distance is awful.

 

I am another one to favor a little toning down on ground troops accuracy. It's really hard to hit a moving aircraft while diving at 500+ km/h and there has not been a single time that I was not critically hit by those BMP's.

 

I'd respect it if it were an AAA battery, but they just seem over accurate for ground armor.

[Kula66]

Agreed it increases the challenge and looks great visually, but I'd be happier if they were just a little less accurate unless they have some radar fire-control system like on dedicated AAA systems.

 

I'm sure in RL everyone fires at ground attack a/c - hitting a hovering helicopter is one thing but to hit a crossing, weaving jet regularly while flying away from you at 300mph from 1000m while bouncing along in a moving AFV with nothing but a telescopic sight ... seems a tad optimistic!

[Total]

The BMP-2 is equipped with a laser target designator. As someone said above, consider it the canon on the blackshark with better armor.

 

It has a commander, gunner, and driver. It's a bad ass machine. the BMP-3 has even more toys.

 

The ZSU Shilka and Tunguska have a radar system used for longer range detection and fire control, but that just means that they can reach out and touch you from farther away. It doesn't mean that the BMP-2 and BMP-3 should be taken lightly in their AAA ability by contrast :)

 

Flying head on into a TOW missile humvee is a recipe for disaster as they are laser designated as well (that goes for ingame as in RL)

 

Heck, it's nice to see the tanks firing on us too. Ground Pounding in FC 1.12 really was a turkey shoot unless you ran by a Strela, Shilka, or Tunguska. Now, it's more realistic :D

[tflash]

What I also like is how you feel the bullets hitting your aircraft, at least in Su-25. You really feel how chunks are getting ripped off.

 

And then the healthy countryside walk through this breathtaking region on foot back to the base!

 

But it is really possible to get better at it: fly higher, dive steeper, learn to aim the cluster munitions (incredibly fun with the wind, sideslip etc. coming into play), and jink, as in good old Vietnam times: never fly straight, always turn.

[Bucic]

The BMP-2 is equipped with a laser target designator. As someone said above, consider it the canon on the blackshark with better armor.

 

It has a commander, gunner, and driver. It's a bad ass machine. the BMP-3 has even more toys.

 

The ZSU Shilka and Tunguska have a radar system used for longer range detection and fire control, but that just means that they can reach out and touch you from farther away. It doesn't mean that the BMP-2 and BMP-3 should be taken lightly in their AAA ability by contrast :)

 

Flying head on into a TOW missile humvee is a recipe for disaster as they are laser designated as well (that goes for ingame as in RL)

 

Heck, it's nice to see the tanks firing on us too. Ground Pounding in FC 1.12 really was a turkey shoot unless you ran by a Strela, Shilka, or Tunguska. Now, it's more realistic :D

But it probably has its laser rangefinder fixed in parallel with gun muzzle axis so it couldn't use the rangefinder for deflection shots.

[Zad Fnark]

Here's what a platoon of Marders did to me...

 

 

ZF-

[Boberro]

I remember when in the past I have hit another plane and nose went out :P But plane was still playable hehehe

[Zad Fnark]

Yeah, it seems to happen a lot. I flew this mission three times. Once with the T and the other two with the vanilla 25. Every single time the nose was shot off.

 

It doesn't seem to slow the plane down much. My landings were a bit hot. I can't tell for sure by much, since the airspeed guage fails from this (nice touch).

 

ZF-

[ARM505]

I tend to agree that cannon fire is a little too accurate. Its one thing to be respectful of the fact that they can fire them at us, it's another for them to be laser guided terminators who've been duck-hunting since age 3. Also, try tangling with an Apache with guns only. Su27 0, Apache 1, with alarming frequency. Seriously, they're dangerous. I can't see the Apaches gun (an Area Weapon System, as they call it), combined with image auto track managed to be quite so sniper-ish. Plus, those crewmembers are like greased lightning on the switches.... :)

[GGTharos]

You can't see how a laser-ranged, auto-tracking, much-more-easily-aimed canon than yours can be 'more sniperish' than your gun when the actual spread is similar to your A2A weapon? :)

 

You did things wrong: Attack from high altitude.

 

Just IMHO.

 

I tend to agree that cannon fire is a little too accurate. Its one thing to be respectful of the fact that they can fire them at us, it's another for them to be laser guided terminators who've been duck-hunting since age 3. Also, try tangling with an Apache with guns only. Su27 0, Apache 1, with alarming frequency. Seriously, they're dangerous. I can't see the Apaches gun (an Area Weapon System, as they call it), combined with image auto track managed to be quite so sniper-ish. Plus, those crewmembers are like greased lightning on the switches.... :)

[ARM505]

....sigh....Yes, thanks for the tip, I should remember not to intentionally fly into the enemies obvious engagement zone as an experiment in a simulator... :)

 

My point, is that judging by what I've read about the use of the Apache's cannon in combat, it would be less accurate than it is portrayed when used in an air to air role against a fighter. Also, by saying 'attack from high altitude', you're obviously not aware that in game, the Apache does some pretty spectacular moves to point at you, and of course the crew aquire and track you instantly. So, almost ANY gun attack against an aware Apache holds (IMHO) an unrealistically high level of risk. Again, it's just my opinion, based on some very limited experience of similar systems.

 

In my brief experience of watching automatic target tracking systems at work, (image stab and radar, laser ranged etc) they're not so super smooth as everybody seems to think. They tend to jump and jiggle all over the place, with the cannon then jumping even further out to try and apply lead. Against a rapidly crossing target, in an air to air role, from a moving platform, with the relatively low ROF of the Apache cannon....I just don't believe that it would be that good. But anyway, it's just my opinion, and yes thanks, when it counts I'll stay away from the little bundles of death that they are.

[SFJackBauer]

....sigh....Yes, thanks for the tip, I should remember not to intentionally fly into the enemies obvious engagement zone as an experiment in a simulator... :)

 

My point, is that judging by what I've read about the use of the Apache's cannon in combat, it would be less accurate than it is portrayed when used in an air to air role against a fighter. Also, by saying 'attack from high altitude', you're obviously not aware that in game, the Apache does some pretty spectacular moves to point at you, and of course the crew aquire and track you instantly. So, almost ANY gun attack against an aware Apache holds (IMHO) an unrealistically high level of risk. Again, it's just my opinion, based on some very limited experience of similar systems.

 

In my brief experience of watching automatic target tracking systems at work, (image stab and radar, laser ranged etc) they're not so super smooth as everybody seems to think. They tend to jump and jiggle all over the place, with the cannon then jumping even further out to try and apply lead. Against a rapidly crossing target, in an air to air role, from a moving platform, with the relatively low ROF of the Apache cannon....I just don't believe that it would be that good. But anyway, it's just my opinion, and yes thanks, when it counts I'll stay away from the little bundles of death that they are.

 

To balance things however, Mi-24 Hinds and its 12.7mm YakB machine gun are equally deadly. As you can check out on the quick start mission for the A-10.

[GGTharos]

Which descriptions of it being used in air to air combat have you read?

 

It is an 'area weapon' compared with another gun in A2G use, but that doesn't necessarily mean it spreads a whole lot more than an M61.

 

My point, is that judging by what I've read about the use of the Apache's cannon in combat, it would be less accurate than it is portrayed when used in an air to air role against a fighter.

[tflash]

Yeah, it seems to happen a lot. I flew this mission three times. Once with the T and the other two with the vanilla 25. Every single time the nose was shot off.

 

It doesn't seem to slow the plane down much. My landings were a bit hot. I can't tell for sure by much, since the airspeed guage fails from this (nice touch).

 

ZF-

 

Well, it happened a lot to me also until I changed my tactics.

I now come in from higher altitude, dive, try only to hit one max two targets and then climb as hell while jinking (watching the tracers flow by helps you to anticipate where to fly.

 

This way, well ... euhhhh ... I get shot down again very often, but it still is fun :music_whistling:

[ARM505]

Which descriptions of it being used in air to air combat have you read?

 

It is an 'area weapon' compared with another gun in A2G use, but that doesn't necessarily mean it spreads a whole lot more than an M61.

 

To clarify, whilst I've read a fair amount about A2G firings, I've never read any description of the cannon being used in an actual air-to-air firing, not even against drones, which is telling to a degree. I assume it has been done, but you must admit it's not something about which there are a lot of data available. Also, comparing shot dispersion with the Vulcan isn't really appropriate in this case IMHO - the M61's much higher rate of fire allows it to be very effective in the A2A role, for which it was designed.

 

Also, (yeah, dodgy I know but there are a lot of them), in the countless video's available online of Apache cannon cam footage, you should admit it's not startlingly precise.

 

I'm not saying that it's a physical impossibility to be hit by one, but just have a try - 1 vs 1 fighter vs AH64D. Try to attack it, and you get nailed very, very easily. It's the 'perfection' often encountered in the world of sims - when something is reduced to numbers, it becomes too good. The cannon is perfectly boresighted, the operators (literally) operate at the speed of light, each shell is perfect (barring the random dispersion programmed in) etc.

 

Edit to add: The same can be said (indeed, that's the point of the thread) about a great many of the in game cannon/platforms. They're very, very accurate, and IMHO this could not be achieved in the real world.

Edited April 18, 2010 by ARM505

[EtherealN]

I did actually try that "1 vs 1 fighter vs AH64D", except I made it me versus four AH64D at Excellent skill setting. I did have missiles but refrained from using them (basically introducing drag weapons and tanks to make their job easier). Worked like a charm - I easily took out the two first through zooming in from above and behind and after rounds-on-target I broke off left and up to make it harder for them to point their gun at me.

 

It was only when I moved in level with them (what the heck would a fighter be doing level with a helicopter anyhow?) that they managed to get me. So: they are very easy as long as you don't invite death through the use of suicide tactics. :P