Ka 50's

[71st_Mastiff]

why are the Ka 50s on the Enemy Mig29s radar automatically? :mad:

 

This is not realistic they take off turn on there radar and have awacs telling them where we are; when they should'nt be on there radar at 90m AGL.

 

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: good one makes it reall easy for KA's to be drons. :pilotfly:

[IvanK]

Why not ? Nice big doppler return in the rotor disc if the fighter has some look down.

[159th_Viper]

...Nice big doppler return in the rotor disc....

 

Not Modelled :)

[MoGas]

The KA-50 is not a RAH-66 Comanche. You should plan youre flight with the KA-50 what you want to do before you go. And get some cover where your KA-50 group is as well via TS, a 104th member should know that.

 

And btw. in RL, AWACS would see moveing vehicles on the road as well. The KA-50 with his turning rotor blades, is a very nice radar contact in RL. :)

 

Edited for Ivank, I was pointing on a RL situation anyway.

Edited May 17, 2010 by MoGas

[IvanK]

Not modelled well there you go... :)

[JLZ]

And btw. in RL, AWACS would see moveing vehicles on the road as well. The KA-50 with his turning rotor blades, is a very nice radar contact in RL. :)

 

Even if above quotation is a true, how would AWACS distinguish Ka50 from ground vehicles if it flies below 90km/h?

 

What about Ka50 in hovering mode? Is it visible through AWACS?

[winz]

Even if above quotation is a true, how would AWACS distinguish Ka50 from ground vehicles if it flies below 90km/h?

Doppler effect on radar waves caused by helis spinnig rotor blades.

[Fahhh]

Even if above quotation is a true, how would AWACS distinguish Ka50 from ground vehicles if it flies below 90km/h?

 

What about Ka50 in hovering mode? Is it visible through AWACS?

 

The answer lies in your quotation... The turning rotor blades give a nice radar contact due to them moving at a fast rate thus giving huge doppler return. This is in RL, however ingame, as it was already said, this is not modelled, but is simulated in some other probably much simplified way, so i believe you could still lock a hovering helicopter.

[Boberro]

Not matter what chopper it is. Always try to get at least one guy who would be so nice and will protect you. There are many n00bs who hunt only for bombers = easy kill ;]

[JLZ]

The answer lies in your quotation... The turning rotor blades give a nice radar contact due to them moving at a fast rate thus giving huge doppler return. This is in RL, however ingame, as it was already said, this is not modelled, but is simulated in some other probably much simplified way, so i believe you could still lock a hovering helicopter.

 

Wouldn't the same be true for ground vehicles? Doppler effects works same for every object. Regardless flying one or grounded one. My question was how radar will distinguish moving ground vehicle from low flying chopper in speeds below 90km/h?

 

In RL very few Mi-8 and Gazzeles flights were detected by NATO AWACS in no-fly zones in Bosnia.

 

And at the end, game should be more fun (less frustration) if choppers become undetectable in certain conditions (low and relatively slow flight).

 

My 2 cents...

[winz]

Tips of your rotor blades are turning much faster than 90km/h, thus they create much stronger doppler effect than a car.

[Fahhh]

In the case of the chopper, the doppler return is not from the speed of the chopper itself, but the fast-rotating blades. Even when hovering, the blades rotate fast, and give a good return signal. Ground clutter is surely reducing the detect and engage range though.

 

Real pilots from our AF flying in MiG-21s against F-15s in training engagements, once said that they tried to fly low over highways, in order to confuse the radars of the eagles with a lot of moving metal objects. And they succeeded in the first engagements, later on, the American pilots began using other radar modes(the exact words were something like "Ground Speed Selection mode") which more effectively filtered ground clutter and the migs could not sneak up anymore...

[Pilotasso]

Choppers, cars and even windmills can be detected by a fighters radar. KA's seem to be simplified in terms of radar dectability. I have detected several KA's up to 40 miles but they appear cloaked untill you get within 20 miles at which range you can shoot a missile, easy kill. Chopper pilots should take an indirect path to the battle or suffer de consequences. But I imagine once it enters deep in enemy territory, say near airbases there will be hell to pay as it will be difficult to remove someone hiding at tree top level. As hard as removing a bug from the rugg.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Pilotasso

[104th_Crunch]

why are the Ka 50s on the Enemy Mig29s radar automatically? :mad:

 

This is not realistic they take off turn on there radar and have awacs telling them where we are; when they should'nt be on there radar at 90m AGL.

 

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: good one makes it reall easy for KA's to be drons. :pilotfly:

 

Don't forget Mastiff, the 104th is filled with instructors and even beta testers that can answer your questions. Give them a try and ask.

[JLZ]

Oh, common...

If you are looking for needle in hay it would be much easier to find it if someone point where it might be. F15 must be looking for 21's on highways after first time trick. BTW. 21's fly much faster then Ka50 and ground vehicles.

 

winz, elaborate please. Rotating blades scatter radar waves more efficiently then if it were full disc. For Doppler effect, area is most concerning factor. If chopper is hovering, it has exposed area of (in best case) of rotor radius multiplied by Square Pi. What about metal roofs or any other high metal area objects? They would have good reflection too.

It's common practice for radar to filter out moving objects with speeds below 90km/h to avoid overwhelming of radar operator with false alarms. Not to mention sending pilots to intercept non-existing targets. Also, there are vehicles with much bigger area than a car.

 

NHF :thumbup:

[winz]

For Doppler effect, area is most concerning factor.

For doppler effect speed is the most concering factor, the faster the reflecting surface is moving the bigger is the dopple effect (wave frequency increase/decrease).

As to size of the rotor blades, I would say that modern radars are sensitive enough to pick-up reflection from the blades.

[GGTharos]

Oh, common...

If you are looking for needle in hay it would be much easier to find it if someone point where it might be. F15 must be looking for 21's on highways after first time trick. BTW. 21's fly much faster then Ka50 and ground vehicles.

 

And the Ka-50's rotor blades fly about as fast as a 21. Understand this: You can be standing STILL ON THE GROUND in a helicopter, an F-15 will see you from 50nm away. Proven fact, not conjecture.

 

To the F-15 radar this will at first appear to look like a velocity gate stealer - ie. a jammer, but eventually the radar will 'do its thing'. Because of the rotors, a helicopter is VERY easy to distinguish from car traffic. You set the doppler gate to 180kph and boom, cars gone, chopper on scope.

[Cyb0rg]

And the Ka-50's rotor blades fly about as fast as a 21. Understand this: You can be standing STILL ON THE GROUND in a helicopter, an F-15 will see you from 50nm away. Proven fact, not conjecture.

 

To the F-15 radar this will at first appear to look like a velocity gate stealer - ie. a jammer, but eventually the radar will 'do its thing'. Because of the rotors, a helicopter is VERY easy to distinguish from car traffic. You set the doppler gate to 180kph and boom, cars gone, chopper on scope.

 

Thats why i always respect velocity limits. :pilotfly:

[SFJackBauer]

Thats why i always respect velocity limits. :pilotfly:

 

So those guys at German Autobahns need to be careful eh?

 

[GGTharos]

There is in fact a joke about an F-15C pilot shooting down a Mercedes with an AIM-7 (he locked up something through cloud cover, shot at it, and it vanished. They both claimed to have seen the kill, but IIRC no one is really buying it.)

[Case]

And the Ka-50's rotor blades fly about as fast as a 21. Understand this: You can be standing STILL ON THE GROUND in a helicopter, an F-15 will see you from 50nm away. Proven fact, not conjecture.

The radar returns from a choppers blades will have a very very specific shape. Whereas the returns of an airplane will have a certain doppler shift cause by the line-of-sight velocity of the target and the targetting airplane, a chopper will look differently. The rotor blades are turning at a certain rpm and have a certain length. This means the rotor tips are moving with a certain velocity towards and away from the emitting airplane. Hence the radar returns will have line-of-sight doppler velocities from that certain velocity towards and away, added on top of the line-of-sight of the chopper itself. If the radar has enough power to refresh quickly enough it could actually make out each rotor blade as it turns around. It should be child's play to figure out how many blades the chopper has, if they are counterrotating like the Kamov or if it has a tail rotor like other choppers, and it might even figure out the orientation of the rotor axis.

[JLZ]

And the Ka-50's rotor blades fly about as fast as a 21. Understand this: You can be standing STILL ON THE GROUND in a helicopter, an F-15 will see you from 50nm away. Proven fact, not conjecture.

 

To the F-15 radar this will at first appear to look like a velocity gate stealer - ie. a jammer, but eventually the radar will 'do its thing'. Because of the rotors, a helicopter is VERY easy to distinguish from car traffic. You set the doppler gate to 180kph and boom, cars gone, chopper on scope.

 

I'd like to see proof. Thanks.

[GGTharos]

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/stories/182-tim-bennetts-war

 

Scroll down to 'bombing the helicopter'.

Sadly it doesn't seem like this is the authentic account - there is one elsewhere, but not easy to find. Much more detail, and specifics as to how they liternally slaved the pod to the radar, not the other way around.

Edited May 17, 2010 by GGTharos

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

JLZ - what has been said above is correct. you get good radar returns off fast moving blades. Whilst we are talking here on this thread about helo blades, I have some personal experience of similar things but with turbojet blades.

 

I can recall an incident at work while testing one of my radars many years ago. We had a test flight aircraft flying directly away from us. We got good radar returns from him and could see him easily. Once he was out to XXX miles, we had him turn 180deg and come back to us. He simply dissapeared and stayed dissapeared for a long time until he got quite a few miles closer.

 

We were rather confused until we found out the type of aircraft and eventually we figured it out. He was a single engined trainer jet and while he was going away from us, we were getting good reflections from the blades inside the engine. When he turned, because of the type of aircraft (single engine with intakes either side of fuselage) we could not see the engine anymore, the curved air intakes masked the blades.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Brit_Radar_Dude

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

Sadly it doesn't seem like this is the authentic account - there is one elsewhere...

Seem to recall reading an account of this event in William L Smallwood's book Strike Eagle - Flying the F-15E in the Gulf War.