HOTAS vs. TrackIR

[Bushmanni]

I would think that with freetrack you can have pretty much the same accuracy as with TrackIR as they have the same resolution camera. But with TrackIR 5 you get 150fps tracking speed witch results almost lag free tracking while still having a superb accuracy. It just seems unlikely to me that you would have that with 30-60fps. The helmet sight would be pretty useless if there was too much lag as you couldn't keep up with the movement of the helicopter. My experience is that you need basically lag free tracking in order to use helmet sight effectively. Of course if lag is no problem why pay for extra?

[a1adin]

I was thinking about buying TrackIR, however their company policy not to support their own old products

and their monopolistic behaviour really piss me off.

http://naturalpointofview.blogspot.com/

 

So I try freetrack instead.

Now I use it with my DCSBS, and I am perfectly satisfied with it.

 

And also, I can use it for clicking the cockpit buttons with no problem at all, although my fps is around 0-60.

[DTWD]

I can understand there behaviour if someone else is leaching off there tech to provide a "free" solution.

 

I am not sure if this is what your referring too or not, but if it's the DLL your on about then they had every right to get mouthy. Also if freetrack users are using TiR software, again reason to get angry.

 

In the end you have two choices:

 

1) A cheaper alternative that will require the purchase of certain items if you don't already own them. Possible cost circa £30.

 

2) A far more expensive option, but you can be confident of it "just working". That's not to say 3rd party alternatives won't, but you know yours will. It also puts minimal load on the CPU and everything is already made for you, no skills required. Approximate cost £100+.

[Waldo_II]

Let me explain what he means by "monopolistic behavior."

 

In the good old days, there was a simple TrackIR-to-game software interface, and just TrackIR. Then Freetrack came around and wrote their software so that it behaved in the same way as the TrackIR-to-game software, and users could use Freetrack with any TrackIR-enabled game.

 

Just so we are clear, this is how the software works: TrackIR.exe or whatever is running, and that takes information from the IR camera on your monitor and does the mathematics and such and converts it into a form that the game can use. The game developers have to get a module from the NaturalPoint developers (the makers of TrackIR) so that the game can get the headtracking data from TrackIR.exe. The game then interprets that data into camera movement and such.

 

The "monopolistic" move is this: NaturalPoint issued an "update" to their software (TrackIR.exe) and the module that they give to game developers. In this update, they added an encryption system. The result is that only NaturalPoint's TrackIR software, which works only with the expensive TrackIR setup, can work with games that use the headtracking module that comes from NaturalPoint.

 

The quesion to be asked is this: Why would NaturalPoint make such a move? The only logical answer for encrypting the interface is that they are trying to keep people from using Freetrack, thus forcing users to buy TrackIR if they want to use headtracking in their games. The encryption system gives NaturalPoint a monopoly on the headtracking market.

 

Game developers have only two choices: Create their own module that would work only with Freetrack, or sign a contract with NaturalPoint and use a module that would work only with TrackIR.

 

I believe, along with many others, that the behavior of NaturalPoint violates the Sherman Anti-trust Act, designed to keep monopolies from forming. However, this will never ever go to court unless somebody is willing to pay for lawyers and all, which open-source developers (those of Freetrack) cannot do.

 

This is among the main reasons why I decided to build my own headtracking setup instead of purchasing TrackIR. I don't want my money going towards a company that uses such business practices.

 

The Freetrack community has developed cracks to circumvent the NaturalPoint DRM scheme, which is how I play DCS: Black Shark.

[winz]

Game developers have only two choices: Create their own module that would work only with Freetrack, or sign a contract with NaturalPoint and use a module that would work only with TrackIR

Or, they could incorporate TrackIR module, and also make their own, which supports freetrack, like BI studio did with Arma2.

[Waldo_II]

Or, they could incorporate TrackIR module, and also make their own, which supports freetrack, like BI studio did with Arma2.

 

The ArmA 2 comprimise came after a loooooong struggle from the community. At first it was strictly no-Freetrack, but I think after a considerable amount of negotiation Bohemia was allowed to implement a Freetrack interface. If I remember correctly, at first it was only partial implementation: only 3-DOF, until later when 6-DOF was added. Although I admit that I haven't seen the contracts that were signed, I'm pretty confident in my assumption that the original contract states that the game developers can't add in Freetrack support. It seems foolish for NaturalPoint to implement the restrictive encryption system without backing it up with a contract. ArmA 2 and BI are both large enough in their own respects that they could sway NaturalPoint to a compromise. It's always bad business to piss off a community as large as the one behind ArmA 2, for both BI and NP.

 

Eagle Dynamics tried to do exactly what you described when creating DCS: Black Shark. Unfortunetly, this happened.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Waldo_II

[bumfire]

Let me explain what he means by "monopolistic behavior."

 

In the good old days, there was a simple TrackIR-to-game software interface, and just TrackIR. Then Freetrack came around and wrote their software so that it behaved in the same way as the TrackIR-to-game software, and users could use Freetrack with any TrackIR-enabled game.

 

Just so we are clear, this is how the software works: TrackIR.exe or whatever is running, and that takes information from the IR camera on your monitor and does the mathematics and such and converts it into a form that the game can use. The game developers have to get a module from the NaturalPoint developers (the makers of TrackIR) so that the game can get the headtracking data from TrackIR.exe. The game then interprets that data into camera movement and such.

 

The "monopolistic" move is this: NaturalPoint issued an "update" to their software (TrackIR.exe) and the module that they give to game developers. In this update, they added an encryption system. The result is that only NaturalPoint's TrackIR software, which works only with the expensive TrackIR setup, can work with games that use the headtracking module that comes from NaturalPoint.

 

The quesion to be asked is this: Why would NaturalPoint make such a move? The only logical answer for encrypting the interface is that they are trying to keep people from using Freetrack, thus forcing users to buy TrackIR if they want to use headtracking in their games. The encryption system gives NaturalPoint a monopoly on the headtracking market.

 

Game developers have only two choices: Create their own module that would work only with Freetrack, or sign a contract with NaturalPoint and use a module that would work only with TrackIR.

 

I believe, along with many others, that the behavior of NaturalPoint violates the Sherman Anti-trust Act, designed to keep monopolies from forming. However, this will never ever go to court unless somebody is willing to pay for lawyers and all, which open-source developers (those of Freetrack) cannot do.

 

This is among the main reasons why I decided to build my own headtracking setup instead of purchasing TrackIR. I don't want my money going towards a company that uses such business practices.

 

The Freetrack community has developed cracks to circumvent the NaturalPoint DRM scheme, which is how I play DCS: Black Shark.

 

That isnt monopolistic, thats good business sense, example, say you made a piece of software and were selling it and it did X function, say some kid programmer came along and ripped your software code to see how it worked and then made his own software that mimics yours, but needed parts of your software/module to actually work correctly with games, without your module/interface his sytemw ould be totally useless. So dont you think its fair for NP to stop someone that is UNAUTHORISED from using/abusing their code ?

 

Trying to be a competitor to an established company by mimicing them and needing parts of their system for your system to actually work, and then to offer it for free, how would you expect NP to take this ? say to freetrack that they did a great job ? come on, this is business and if you think any business is going to standby whilst some programmer is makin free competitive software that is using part of NP's system to work in the first place, then you are sadly mistaken, its stupidity that you come on here and claim that NP is monopolistic because its stopping a freeware competitor from interfacing with it, seriously.

 

How would you feel if you designed something and a programmer came along and copied its functions to an extent, but needed a certain part of your system for his system to work, and then offered it up to the world for free ? I am sure you would be happy and thrilled with such a situation, especially when you started to see lost revenue because of it.

 

If free track want to make a head tracking system, a proper one and to offer it for free, ( I will say that I used it before buying tir and I didnt think much of it ), but if they want to make one that works with games, then they should make their OWN software and interface with games using their own interface module, not somebody elses.

 

So it isnt monopolisitc, even though you may feel it is, its just a company keeping other people from abusing its software.

 

You want to interface with a car, you need a key, now say some idiot comes along and interfaces with your car by ripping out the ignition and using your car that way, would you be happy ? no of course you wouldnt because they would be stealing your car.

 

And I think you will find that speaking about cracks and hacks, regardless of what its for is frowned upon and banned on this forum.

Edited July 27, 2010 by bumfire

[JLZ]

That isnt monopolistic, thats good business sense, example, say you made a piece of software and were selling it and it did X function, say some kid programmer came along and ripped your software code to see how it worked and then made his own software that mimics yours, but needed parts of your software/module to actually work correctly with games, without your module/interface his sytemw ould be totally useless. So dont you think its fair for NP to stop someone that is UNAUTHORISED from using/abusing their code ?

 

Why NP didn't sue them already for that stealing? Bcs, there is no steal. Isn't that obvious?

FT is not useless. It works with numerous games where devs didn't want to implement NP's encrypted interface.

It works as mouse and keyboard emulator too. For free. Unlike NP's separate solution few times more expensive than TIR. Why? Bcs handicapped people need it. And as we all know, everything must be expensive for them.

 

Trying to be a competitor to an established company by mimicing them and needing parts of their system for your system to actually work, and then to offer it for free, how would you expect NP to take this ? say to freetrack that they did a great job ? come on, this is business and if you think any business is going to standby whilst some programmer is makin free competitive software that is using part of NP's system to work in the first place, then you are sadly mistaken, its stupidity that you come on here and claim that NP is monopolistic because its stopping a freeware competitor from interfacing with it, seriously.

 

If they copy-paste program code then why "old incompatible TIR hardware" works with FT in full compatibility (6DOF etc.) while it can't with TIR software?

 

They need patent for stopping interfacing. They don't have it nor they ever will.

Stop interfacing? Stop FreeSQL from interfacing with MS SQL. Right...

 

Mimicry? Yeah, all cars in the world are so different.

 

How would you feel if you designed something and a programmer came along and copied its functions to an extent, but needed a certain part of your system for his system to work, and then offered it up to the world for free ? I am sure you would be happy and thrilled with such a situation, especially when you started to see lost revenue because of it.

 

I should feel I needed to do some copyright studying before I went to market.

What mouse and keyboard manufacturers should say?

It's HID. It should be very same, bcs all humans are very same...

 

If free track want to make a head tracking system, a proper one and to offer it for free, ( I will say that I used it before buying tir and I didnt think much of it ), but if they want to make one that works with games, then they should make their OWN software and interface with games using their own interface module, not somebody elses.

 

FT makes their own software. It has features like capability of tracking 4 light sources at once. TIR uses 3 max.

Interface is supposed to be uniform for all devices in class.

Interface module is for game developers to make or buy. NP gives one for free. Encrypted for TIR software only. That's a catch. That's forcing usage of their product.

 

For illustration, let's say joystick Company A gave interface to game devs but then all other joysticks in the world don't work with that game any more. Even further, Company A old products work with some limitations too.

 

So it isnt monopolisitc, even though you may feel it is, its just a company keeping other people from abusing its software.

 

NP is keeping their own users from "abusing" their software by making old hardware "incompatible" with new versions of software while that old hardware works with full functionality in FT. Thanks NP.

 

You want to interface with a car, you need a key, now say some idiot comes along and interfaces with your car by ripping out the ignition and using your car that way, would you be happy ? no of course you wouldnt because they would be stealing your car.

 

Example...

Well, if NP made that key-lock than all other key-lock system manufacturers, which use key and lock also, would be plagiarists. All users who remove "security notch" from NP lock so they could use keys from other manufacturers would be violating EULA. All other who made punch in other manufacturer's keys to fit into NP lock (bcs of notch) would be called thief and EULA violators.

Now, people who made their own lock and key BUT use same cables and jack to interface home-made-solution with the rest of ignition systems... Man... They should really reconsider their actions. They are thief bcs that independent manufacturer of iron did steal NP's 'the secure iron' patent (which they don't own). Their false iron also make lag in ignition system and it causes 0.05l/100km more fuel consumption.

It doesn't smell good too.

 

And I think you will find that speaking about cracks and hacks, regardless of what its for is frowned upon and banned on this forum.

 

Then... call it 'patch' for enabling usage of FT (and all other similar devices) in BS :)

 

 

 

At the end...

TIR have more advanced camera, better software support, all-same-size clips, profiles for the games, 100% p'n'p solution

 

What NP doesn't have is common sense.

Most of FT users get sick of adjusting or they are technically illiterate to make those adjustments. Then, they buy TIR and rest of the time spend with family or simply - playing games.

They would NEVER bought one if they couldn't try it for small price and falled in love for tracking systems. In that moment they can see value of commercial solution and why it cost so much.

 

NP is forcing their customers in upgrades with false statements about incompatibility issues between old hardware and new software. That's why I don't like them and I will never buy anything from them.

 

But... I ordered and arranged selling of 5 TIR systems for my friends. I didn't make any FT for any of them. They didn't like how clips look like and don't want to adjust software too much. Now again, they would never bought it without seeing FT usage from me in the first place.

 

You think NP doesn't know all superiority of their solutions and free commercial aspect from FT? They do. But also they know that FT software (and their users) remove catches that prevent usage of old TIR hardware with new software functions. Why should you buy TIR5 if TIR3 works fine and you are happy with it?

 

All businesses want subscribers, not one-time-only happy customers. NP showed themselves with 'vector expansion license' for TIR3 users. In the same time you could use TIR3 hardware in FT software and use 6DOF for free.

 

That's why FT is important for TIR users too.

[shu77]

Bit of thread drift here....

Track IR is a good product, while There may be some issues with TIR 3 the 4 and 5 are fine products and the 5 software works fine for free with the 4. Its not really unreasonable to expect that They want to stop supporting the version thats2 old is it? even Microsoft do that

[bengo]

Well, I must confess I have TrackIr but do not use it. First of all I indeed had the sun-through-window problem since my room is at the wrong side of the house, and second I just cannot adapt to the TrackIr experience: I feel I have to do unnatural headmovements and I get this pain in my neck.

 

I also found the trackclip pro thing very annoying, even though I always use a headset.

 

But then again I'm very sorry for that because you really need TrackIr in this game, there is no doubt about that.

 

That's a shame mate. Is it an option for you to close the curtains ? Have you tried adjusting the sensitivity ?

Getting pain in your neck is not normal at all. Have you tried adjusting the profile to suit your needs ?

What do you find annoying about the TrackClip Pro ?

There's got to be a way to solve your problems with TIR. Try and describe your problems in detail, maybe someine here can come up with a cure ?

F.e : get your hands on a large piece of cardboard (karton in't Vlaams :smilewink:)and put it up against the back of your chair to block all lightsources from behind you.

[shu77]

That's a shame mate. Is it an option for you to close the curtains ? Have you tried adjusting the sensitivity ?

Getting pain in your neck is not normal at all. Have you tried adjusting the profile to suit your needs ?

What do you find annoying about the TrackClip Pro ?

There's got to be a way to solve your problems with TIR. Try and describe your problems in detail, maybe someine here can come up with a cure ?

F.e : get your hands on a large piece of cardboard (karton in't Vlaams :smilewink:)and put it up against the back of your chair to block all lightsources from behind you.

 

Using the camera view on the TRACK IR is key, because you find you get a lot of light off things you wouldnt expect. I have to shut the curtains even when its over cast to avoid a reflection off the windscreen of the car outside the window, and even then one of the hats I had the clip on had a plastic logo on it which was reflecting something back to the camera and throwing off my 'throttle' glances. Past that definately having a bigger monitor helps, my 22" works fine but I wouldnt bother if I was trying to use a 17" for gaming.

[Sarge55]

I have a window directly behind me with the sun shining on that side until mid afternoon. I use red curtains, not particularly heavy and they work great, doesn't affect the TIR at all.

When I check for light sources in camera view it's just the three dots from my pro clip even though the sun is shining directly on the curtains.

[Rusty_M]

Well I had a TrackIR arrive the day before yesterday, and in general, I'd say that HOTAS is more important, even though I'm enjoying getting used to TrackIR.

 

Admittedly this is my feeling in general, having tried it with Flaming Cliffs 1, IL2 1946, FSX and F4 Allied Force. I haven't yet tried Black Shark, as this laptop doesn't do it justice and barely runs FC2.

[DTWD]

TrackIR (and the alternatives) is far more impressive in 6DOF, the ability to lean around or over items in your field of view is just extremely usefull and cool. The time I found it most usefull and "game changing" was in FSX where you look over the dashboard properly and see the runway in front of you.

 

In BS is the thing you find yourself doing a lot (ala 6DOF) is ducking down to get a good view on the Shkval and looking out the door as you side slip onto the helipad.

[ZaltysZ]

Getting pain in your neck is not normal at all. Have you tried adjusting the profile to suit your needs ?

 

In fact, it is normal. I know lots of people who had the same problem in first weeks they started using head tracking. Try remembering the first time you have used the joystick: strained hand, sweat all over the place, but after some time it became very easy and transparent. The same is with head tracking - body needs to get used to new tricks. :D

[tflash]

That's a shame mate. Is it an option for you to close the curtains ? Have you tried adjusting the sensitivity ?

Getting pain in your neck is not normal at all. Have you tried adjusting the profile to suit your needs ?

What do you find annoying about the TrackClip Pro ?

There's got to be a way to solve your problems with TIR. Try and describe your problems in detail, maybe someine here can come up with a cure ?

F.e : get your hands on a large piece of cardboard (karton in't Vlaams :smilewink:)and put it up against the back of your chair to block all lightsources from behind you.

 

Hallo Bengo :smilewink:

 

I will certainly try to get it to work for me, but first I plan to upgrade to TrackIR 5.

[Wolf Rider]

well, there are some really pithy arguments supporting the use of a hack in this thread let it be said

 

:music_whistling:

 

free track should write their own code to make the cameras work,\ in their own right and that uses information from the sim/ game, instead of hacking into somebody else's code to make the cameras work

 

:wassat:

[HydroToad]

well, there are some really pithy arguments supporting the use of a hack in this thread let it be said

 

:music_whistling:

 

free track should write their own code to make the cameras work,\ in their own right and that uses information from the sim/ game, instead of hacking into somebody else's code to make the cameras work

 

:wassat:

 

Don't feed the troll.

 

18 pages of Wolf Rider trolling 1C forums.

[topdog]

Regarding neck pains, I experience this also and it's a kind of straining of the neck brought about by you positioning your head/neck in a way that becomes uncomfortable after a long period of time there.

 

Essentially it's not just a matter of training your body to get used to it, but also training your routine to reset your posture every 20-30 minutes or so. Forget the centering/positioning in-game (which is what leads you to crook your head/neck and hold it unnaturally and eventual pain) and use the Reset button of the TrackIR to re-baseline the camera with your normal and natural posture.

 

You'll be surprised I think at what adjustments your head/neck/spine makes to maintain a particular view in-game in what it thinks/believes is normal. After a quick reset it's noticably more comfortable.

 

Thus the Center hotkey of the trackir is the only function of the device that I enable (plus it helps if you accidentally knock or displace the position anytime in-game without having to go back out to fix).

 

If you leave or ignore it, the pains can set in quite severely and add lasting headaches to the mix as well. I can get this with any game playing to be fair, but nowhere near as quickly as when using head tracking. Though admittedly I do routinely abuse all other forms of RSI and posture advice when it comes to using computers and taking breaks. This one I can't neglect though as it's genuinely painful.

 

 

P.s. I recall when I first starting to ride motorcycles that the weight of the helmet does take some time for your head/neck to adjust to before it doesn't feel like a burden - not just the time for the inner foam to shape/mold around your skull - so wearing headphones and/or head tracking clips (light as they are) for long periods could have a similar effect that you do need to get used to, but that's not the cause of the severe pains that people can get.

Edited August 1, 2010 by topdog

[Pigmachine]

If you would ask HOTAS or Track IR for IL2 I would say stick to your standard joystick, and buy a TIR possibly a cheap used TIR4 (since people upgrade).

 

Why? Because you need to be totally aware of your surroundings in those old planes, as in check all sides all the time. In FC2 and BS you at least get some warnings most of the time (if they don't sneak up right behind you with heaters..) but you don't see right behind you anyway, and you should be prepared anyway.

 

X52 pro or non pro, and a used TIR4 should be a lot cheaper then the nice and shiny, and prolly very useful TM A10 HOTAS.

[Lio]

I bought TrackIR and the CH HOTAS setup. By CH stuff havent arrived yet so ive been playing with TrackIR + Logitech Attack 3 Joystic(8 buttons + thorttle)

Tbh i dont know. The TrackIR is nice and lift the experience to a whole new level. But having to take my hand off both throttle and joystick to do every little thing just makes it impossible to play properly. I cant tell you how much i look forward to my joystick arriving.

 

Having to slave shkval, designate, and all sorts of other stuff using the keyboard + mouse is a pain in the ass and enables you to only being able to attack from a stable hover position.

 

Trying to target stuff on the fly is next to impossible unless your in a perfectly trimmed forward flight.

 

So all in all i say get both but with prio on the HOTAS.

[Eis]

So all in all i say get both but with prio on the HOTAS.

 

I agree with this, but the HOTAS should be a cheap one (X-52 or X-52 Pro).

 

I believe it's not worth buying an expensive HOTAS which is dedicated to one A/C (like Cougar, Warthog) and when a new sim arrives you feel old-fashioned :megalol: Except If the HOTAS is this from the aircraft you love.

 

But If you have a general use HOTAS you can assign every sim's and A/C's buttons on it.

 

So it's better to keep money to spend on TIR, pedals, headphones etc... :thumbup:

[TKMR]

Hey guys.

 

Update, I bought the X-52 Pro yesterday from Amazon ($130). After a little more research EVERYTHING I've seen says the TMW will be like $500. So screw that, though it would have been nice to have the split throttle.

 

I was kinda looking at the X65F, but I don't think I would have liked the Force Sensitive deal, plus it was also over my budget.

 

Next deal will be getting the TIR. Will probably end up building something myself until I save up the money.

 

Not sure if I want to spend the money on rudder pedals. They seem like they'd be nice, but I don't really have the room under my desk, and don't plan on building myself a 'pit' anytime soon, so I don't really see the point. They must be nice for those of you that do

have 'em though. ;)

 

EDIT: Sorry to the mod that moved it! Didn't even see this section before! But thank you.

Edited August 2, 2010 by TKMR

[ZQuickSilverZ]

What are you keeping under your desk that you dont have room? Hmmmmmmmmm?

[Lio]

I have been thinking about buying the CH pedals. but i read somewhere on this forum that you wont use them a whole lot. So ive been holding out untill i get my stick and throttle to see if i was satisfied with just those.

 

But i find i need good rudder control for lots of stuff. When in a hover you need to align your target well or Vikhir launch will go south. General manouvering can go much smoother with the use of rudder.

 

So is it stupid to get rudders? will i be disapointed in how little i actualy use them one i get them?