Is it realistic to use the rudder during gun-runs

[kingneptune117]

I was reading an article on SimHq a few months ago that included an interview with a real A-10 pilot. He explained the proper way to employ the warthog. I could have sworn he had said NOT to use the rudder EVER when using rockets or the gun. He said there was some adverse effect it caused that made it inaccurate. Is this true?

[GGTharos]

It is true, but you'll find people doing it anyway because they want to strafe targets around whatever they're aiming at (they line up the column wide instead of in a line, then they use the rudder to strafe. Touching the rudder will probably produce oscillations thanks to the SAS - just guessing here - that will prevent you from gunning accurately).

[Poor mans sniper]

In LOMAC, there was a slight quirk with the rudder. It swayed the nose from side to side after you used it, which caused inaccuracy on strafing runs. Just try to tilt the aircraft slightly for small movements instead of using the rudder.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Poor mans sniper

[Shake3000]

Every control input you make presents a difficulty to the ccip computer, so your goal is to minimize inputs during a strafe and keep flying as straight as possible (straight not necessarily meaning straight and level).

[coolts]

Worrying about procedure whilst diving towards heavily armed enemies at -30 degrees would seem a little silly.

 

If it works, puts rounds on target and keeps you out of danger, then do it. I use the rudder to make small adjustments after I roll in. As long as you engage the PAC (1st stage trigger) after the rudder, it wont fight it.

 

If i get home and the base commander chews me up for using rudder against proper procedure i will show him the new T-80's being painted on the side of my cockpit and the lack of bulletholes in the fuselage.

 

That should shut the old guy up!

[213]

i'm pretty sure procedure is there for a reason. and a more realistic scenario for that story is probably you failing to hit the target because of your wobbling in the first go, coming around and getting shot down.

[GGTharos]

Worrying about procedure whilst diving towards heavily armed enemies at -30 degrees would seem a little silly.

 

Not silly at all. The procedure is there for a reason.

 

If i get home and the base commander chews me up for using rudder against proper procedure i will show him the new T-80's being painted on the side of my cockpit and the lack of bulletholes in the fuselage.

 

That should shut the old guy up!

 

Except you won't, because you can't put enough rounds on target with rudder ;)

[Litjan]

Also don´t forget that you will have to lead your target when flying uncoordinated. I.e. if you have a right-rudder input, you will need to aim to the right of the target to account for the appearant parallax movement of the target. I am not sure if the fire-control-computer will cue the pipper correctly for this scenario (it would need to have info on drift angle). But is shouldn´t be too hard to try this if you have the A-10 beta.

[coolts]

Well, when I pull onto the target I am always a little to one side to the other when entering the dive. I don’t have time to roll and pull /push to move the pipper to correct the horizontal error, so the rudder helps to make very small corrections, very quickly. I am not talking about spraying rounds around like a garden sprinkler. It does decrease accuracy, no doubt, but against soft to medium armoured targets it helps. T-80's are another matter however as very tight groupings are the only way with them apparently, (although I’ve never got one yet with the gun).

 

Since IL-2, the “don’t use the rudder” posts have been the same. Whatever floats your boat.

 

I bought the pedals to use, and for very small gun run corrections they work for me.

Edited November 7, 2010 by coolts

[Vullcan]

Sorry to dig up this old issue but I was searching for this topic because I found myself using the rudder when strafing and figured it probably isnt a good idea!

 

I was contemplating buying rudder pedals today and couldnt justify the expense.

 

Other than on the runway, I find myself not really using the rudder. When should one be applying rudder?

[MTFDarkEagle]

In turns ;)

[EtherealN]

In LOMAC, there was a slight quirk with the rudder. It swayed the nose from side to side after you used it

 

That's not called a "quirk". That's called "aerodynamics". Also known as the start of PIO. Which is also known as the most common reason where my instructors told me to release the controls and let them fix my bull****. :P

 

You can do the same with elevator input very easily (and sometimes way more lethaly, especially during takeoff and final).

 

Worrying about procedure whilst diving towards heavily armed enemies at -30 degrees would seem a little silly.

 

Not silly at all. The procedure is there for a reason.

 

To be more precise - don't dive towards heavily armed enemies if your skill is such that "procedure" isn't in muscle memory. If procedure is off, break off the attack. You are flying a rediculously expensive piece of equipment that your fellow countrymen paid for.

 

The only time where you should even consider continuing the prosecution of a target while though procedure is off is when this might mean saving the lives of your fellow soldiers on the ground.

 

Other than on the runway, I find myself not really using the rudder. When should one be applying rudder?

 

Whenever the ball is not centered. For a straight-wing aircraft like the Hog, this means: anytime you turn.

 

Imperfect rudder coordination means differential lift on the wings as well as sideslipping, which costs you maneuverability and energy - which also happens to be your last line of defence against MANPADs.

[Moa]

Generally you use rudder:

* When maneveuring on the ground.

* During your take-off roll to keep you on the runway; likewise when landing (eg. once Nose Wheel Steering re-activated).

* When performing turns.

* When performing aerobatics (no stall-turn without a rudder!).

* When performing crosswind landings.

* Correcting for yaw if you lose an engine (using rudder can make a speed difference of 20 knots if you use the rudder to correct off-axis yaw from one engine).

 

And that is just for LockOn/A-10C.

 

Rudders are essential for helicopter flight (BlackShark).

 

You'll also use rudders to correct for thrust changes in propeller-driven aircraft due to engine torque effects and the spiraling prop-wash hitting your vertical stabilizer (causing an throttle-setting dependent yaw effect). Hopefully Battle of Britain: Storm of War is not too far away and will almost certainly include these effects (IL-2 does).

Edited December 20, 2010 by Moa

[EtherealN]

SNIPE! :D

 

(Sorry Moa, but I have to have someone to say that to besides Viper. :P )

[MTFDarkEagle]

Hmmm I'm so familiar with that thought E ;)

[SmokeyTheLung]

edit; outrageously redundant...

[StrongHarm]

I spoke to a shaking hog pilot just after he landed during desert storm. He said that there was a mig that had him dead to rights and his air support was retasked elsewhere. The mig took a few fast passes and missed. In desperation he pointed his hog to the trajectory of the mig and juked his stick and rudders to lay out a pattern of uranium in front of him. The mig flew right through it. He said it never should have happened and it was the luckiest thing he ever saw. Then he went and puked for a while.

 

I personally use rudders with guns when a wide area of dispersion is called for. It's only effective against very soft targets.

[Slayer]

As far as the game and the FM as it stands now people do it on soft targets. It works but only because they know its a column of trucks that they put in via the ME and they know its all soft targets. Mix in some armor or even something that shoots back and well....bad piloting will get your killed. Yes you can do it and make a neat video for YouTube but as far as being a viable strategy it's not.

[Frederf]

According to the A's manual:

 

On (Beta Dot SAS), the yaw SAS performs three basic functions: yaw rate damping with ± 7 rudder authority, turn coordination with ± 7° rudder authority, and yaw trim with ± 10° rudder authority.

 

I assume the modeled C uses a beta-dot (beta being the yaw version of alpha, and dot indicating "derivative with respect to time" as Newton invented). Is the auto turn coordination present in DCS? I kind of see it but sometimes it's not perfect. It might be absent or simply running up against authority limits.

[skypirate]

Using the rudder right before or during the gun engagement usually gives me a lof of dust puffs all around the target AND a couple of miles behind too. Meanwhile I get my wing blown or something...

 

Having to use the rudder means that my initial approach was poorly planned, for example I am trying to make a circle, aim and shoot within 1 mile radius.. It simply doesn't work like that.

 

Planning is the core and proper executing is the rest - so get at least 2 miles between you and the target and try to engage between 1,5 and 1 mile.

 

All the rest is ArmA style, which is not really appropriate in DCS...

 

 

About the Vullcan question about rudder - well mate, once you have it, you will know what you were missing. Especially in DCS A-10.

Edited December 21, 2010 by skypirate

[26-J39]

Using the rudder right before or during the gun engagement usually gives me a lof of dust puffs all around the target AND a couple of miles behind too. Meanwhile I get my wing blown or something...

 

Having to use the rudder means that my initial approach was poorly planned, for example I am trying to make a circle, aim and shoot within 1 mile radius.. It simply doesn't work like that.

 

Planning is the core and proper executing is the rest - so get at least 2 miles between you and the target and try to engage between 1,5 and 1 mile.

 

All the rest is ArmA style, which is not really appropriate in DCS...

 

 

About the Vullcan question about rudder - well mate, once you have it, you will know what you were missing. Especially in DCS A-10.

 

Agreed. Spray and pray = desperate situation. Usually induced by the pilot. :D

[TeeJay82]

Im gonna be a smartass and guess you ment the avenger :P

 

i use rudders where i come in at the target consentraitions broadside..

 

kicks ass with infantry and soft vehicles

[Succellus]

Well rudder in modern aircraft is were its least demanded.

The older the aviation the more required it is. WW2 and WW1 Rudder are mandatory to coordiate turns, alingning to land, etc.

 

Well planning a 2 miles run is nice IF

1) your target is going straight

2) There s no cover for him

3) He s dumb and continues his stroll across the summer in a bright summer day.

 

Remember: A plan is botched 10 seconds after it is implemented because you forgot to say to the ennemy what he had to so.

 

So yes, sometime you have to improvise.

[ESzczesniak]

I believe that style points dictate never using rudder to correct aiming. However, my realistic view is that rudder is reasonable for small corrections with the gun, but never so with bombs.

 

The reasoning for this is the gun fires straight along the aircrafts longitudinal axis (pointing straight out the nose). The rudder will change where the nose is pointing and thereby the direction/path the bullets take.

 

However, rudder input has comparatively minor effects on the flight path of aircraft. When bombs release, they travel primarily along the flight path of the aircraft. So using the rudder to change where the nose is pointed will do little to change the flight path of the bomb.

 

Of course, ultimately what you need to be ceratain of is that the release symbology indicates a good release solution for whatever weapon you're employing. Extra points if you do this with solid airmanship, but in the end just get the job done.

[GGTharos]

It has nothing to do with style points. Using the rudder simply makes shooting inaccurate for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is the introduction of side-slip AoA.