Isnt zooming on the HUD kind of cheating?

[Cali]

Zooming isn't bad, unless you use the super zoom. I wish that zooming was forced by the server, so people couldn't super zoom. In FC1 this sucked, people could see things from 40nm+ away which was a load of BS. You can't see fighters from say more then 7nm depending on the type (F-16 or F-15)

 

As GG said, the monitor is nothing compared to our own eyes. I'm sure many of you have been on airliners and love the window seat. I love looking out and seeing the world below. Yes you can see cars from 20k up, but think about military stuff that is trying to blend in.

[159th_Viper]

Zooming isn't bad, unless you use the super zoom. I wish that zooming was forced by the server, so people couldn't super zoom.....

 

Agree.

 

Can that file not be included in the Integrity Check?

[recoil17]

I tried doing this and it still hides the diamond when I put the gun pipper over it. I'm on Beta 3 if that matters.

 

Don't use the gun PIPPER, use the GUN CROSS. I don't know they key command to switch them in GUNS master mode so I just switch to CCIP mode and use the gun cross there.

[Cali]

Agree.

 

Can that file not be included in the Integrity Check?

 

I'm not sure, you'd have to ask masters like Case and Grimes about that.

[Avatar72]

If DCS A10 is really being used by the USAF to train their pilots, it would be interesting to know how they handle visibly looking for their targerts in the sim...Something tells me they have much better hardware to make up for this and a far different game build than what we get commerically but surely they suffer from some of the same problems we do since its all on computer monitors.

How do they train for that in simulation?

[Yskonyn]

If DCS A10 is really being used by the USAF to train their pilots, it would be interesting to know how they handle visibly looking for their targerts in the sim...Something tells me they have much better hardware to make up for this and a far different game build than what we get commerically but surely they suffer from some of the same problems we do since its all on computer monitors.

How do they train for that in simulation?

 

The USAF isn't using the same entertainment version of DCS were are using, but as far a visuals go, that might not matter. Graphics are probably roughly the same on both systems, but the hardware is very different.

 

I train in so-called Level-D sims for my job quite often. 'Level-D' is a term used to indicate the workings and quality of 'feel' inside the sim is very lifelike to the real platform being modelled. In my case a Boeing 737 jetliner.

The graphics are, say, Microsoft Flightsim quality, but the cockpit is built 1:1 and functioning exactly so, eventhough it still has to run on (several) computers behind the scene.

 

My point is, that eventhough the 'picture' you will see in the USAF sim will no doubt be very much like what we see on our monitor as far as graphics go; the hardware is probably totally different.

A-10C cockpit 1:1 reconstructed with a vision unit of 180 degrees FOV (or maybe even more) a moving platform which might give the impression of G forces. Is not like your entertainment desktop at all. :D

 

Hence, the vision unit used is much better than our monitor, if only for the size and scope (all around you).

 

Finally on topic: I don't think zooming is cheating, BUT as pointed out above it has to remain within limits. Only allowing us to adapt for the reduced visibility capability, but preventing things like superzoom. It's how you use it, not if you use it.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Yskonyn

[ESzczesniak]

My understanding has been that the A-10C module used by the USAF, which DCS A-10C is based off of, is a procedure trainer. These are about teaching you to push the right buttons in the right order and work the systems appropriately. They are not typically about combat tactics that would require spotting targets easily, nor are they always the best flight dynamics.

 

They are basically button pushing trainers. However, I could be wrong and perhaps the original A-10C module was more, but I seem to recall somewhere people saying that ED has had to make the flight model and graphics all new for this civilian sim.

Edited November 29, 2010 by ESzczesniak

[Weta43]

Ahh the piety of purists :-)

 

I know I'm not actually going to persuade anyone here - we're all sitting comfortably in our various camps, but to me I guess it all depends on what you want to be real - if you want it to look real, then labels destroy that. If you want to find target with something approaching the ease / difficulty that would occur in real life, then some kind of minimal label just makes up for the deficiencies of the hardware we're all stuck with.

 

On the day that you get a monitor that gives you 160 degree FOV but still lets you find a plane on the runway at 3km as quickly as you woud with the naked eye, then labels will be cheating. Till then, they add to the reality of the operation, at the same time as they detract from the immersiveness of the image on the screen.

[Gearbox]

Don't use the gun PIPPER, use the GUN CROSS. I don't know they key command to switch them in GUNS master mode so I just switch to CCIP mode and use the gun cross there.

 

Master Mode is M on the keyboard (I think) or the stick button by your index finger. From there DMS right changes the reticle.

 

The one I like is the "CCIP Gun Reticle" which is the circle with unwinding range reading and moving target lead indicators.

 

You're saying to use the next one I think, with is the "CCIP Gun Cross" with just a range reading underneath?

 

(Page 517 of the manual for names and pictures)

 

Turns out that the center dot in all modes is what's called the pipper.

[Yskonyn]

My understanding has been that the A-10C module used by the USAF, which DCS A-10C is based off of, is a procedure trainer. These are about teaching you to push the right buttons in the right order and work the systems appropriately. They are not typically about combat tactics that would require spotting targets easily, nor are they always the best flight dynamics.

 

They are basically button pushing trainers. However, I could be wrong and perhaps the original A-10C module was more, but I seem to recall somewhere people saying that ED has had to make the flight model and graphics all new for this civilian sim.

 

Indeed, if they were only procedure trainers the whole issue about vision is moot. :)

[nomdeplume]

The one I like is the "CCIP Gun Reticle" which is the circle with unwinding range reading and moving target lead indicators.

 

You're saying to use the next one I think, with is the "CCIP Gun Cross" with just a range reading underneath?

 

He's saying to use a non-guns mode (e.g. CCIP) and use the secondary gun cross that appears in those modes. The option in the IFFC test menu allows you to disable that secondary cross from occulting the other HUD elements, but it doesn't affect the primary gun reticule.

 

I don't know whether or not the gun cross reticule in guns mode occults or not, based on that setting. I would assume it wouldn't, since it's still the primary reticule, regardless of which mode you've selected. You can try it and find out...

 

Just for completeness:

 

1. In the IFFCC test mode, go to the 'Display modes' submenu, and change 'CCIP GUN CROSS OCCULT' to NO (I think that's what the menu item is called... but I'm almost certain I haven't got it quite right)
   
2. Switch to a non-guns weapons mode, e.g. CCIP.
   
3. When you're pointing at the ground you should see the gun cross indicating the impact point of your gun rounds, in addition to the CCIP weapons cue.
   
4. If you've set OCCULT -> NO, then you should be able to move that cross over other HUD elements without them being hidden behind it.
   

[sylkhan]

Hi,

this thread is interesting, and i will try to explain my point(soryy for my english)

I think that the most realistic way would be to magnify the target. For example, if the ground target is at 3 mils, and not visible at our screen (but must be in RL) ED must magnify the target x1.5 or x2. In that way we don't need to use zoom or label to see the target, in the same way as in RL and we have a better FOV.

When we go near the target, the magnify coeff must be reset progressively to x1

 

Hope you anderstand the idea

Thanks

Edited November 30, 2010 by sylkhan

[Gearbox]

Sylkhan I think Falcon has what you're describing, there's an option called smart scaling, which if I recall correctly magnifies anything you should be able to see but can't. I think it only blows invisible objects up to one pixel though.

[sylkhan]

Thx Gearbox,

If falcon has this feature, it's good, because i think it's one of the only way to have something realistic, without killing the immersion with labels, and having a SA more true to life

[effte]

Target magnification was a brilliant concept then, and still is. Much better than labels. You have to get back to 1:1 at quite a distance though, or it really screws with your perception of depth.

 

I consider labels an acceptable crutch. I also fly in real life, including firewatch missions, and some things are a lot easier to spot in real life than in DCS:A-10. That would include tank-size objects in the open and other aircraft (usual caveats apply on the latter).

 

Then again, some things you will just not see from the air. Infantry is one of those. Tanks and vehicles in forested areas, or hiding in treelines? You'd have to be very lucky. Stationary tanks in sparsely wooded areas? Maybe. If they start moving, your chances will be good.

 

Moving vehicles off paved roads are usually a dead giveaway due to the dust plumes. Anything moving makes life a whole lot easier.

 

Then theres spotting and seeing/reacquiring. Spotting something is hard, but once you know it's there it is a lot easier to see it. It is also a lot easier to locate a certain spot on the ground again in IRL than it is in DCS, due to more irregular ground, peripheral vision as you are turning giving you better situational awareness and higher visual acuity than a computer monitor can render.

 

Ideally, labels would:

 

- Have varying levels of transparency depending on how visible the object is estimated to be.

 

- Change in clarity depending on the object, its surroundings and its actions. A tank steaming across an open field on a dry day would have a clearly visible dot label quite far out. A stationary BMP hiding in forest would have no label until you are within hundreds of meters. If it starts moving, this distance would increase.

 

- Be clearer once you have reasonably spotted them. They'd start out very vague (according to the previous point) and then increase in contrast as you approach. Then they would ever so slowly fade, meaning you have an easier time reacquiring the target you are making repeated runs on on each successive run. Get close once, and the label stays clearly visible until you have left the vehicle alone for some time.

 

- Only turn from a dot to a proper label once you are within range to actually tell what kind of vehicle it is.

 

- Have different levels of label. From dot to vehicle to tracked vehicle to tank to T-80 in succession as you are getting closer.

 

- Have the option of toggling between dots only, no labels and complete labels.

 

...

 

...

[Weta43]

I'd add - 'not be visible through the floor or headrest of the plane' to that list :-)

 

The first 3 on your list would be great - The last 3 are pretty much do-able with the current system.

[degoe]

Real pilots most certainly DO NOT use binoculars when straffing the target ;)

Yes, about binoculars. What are the two binocular looking things to the left and right side of the cockpit. They are at the bottom ledge of the canopy and I cant click them or do anything with them.

 

 

I don't think it's cheating at all; you get a better look at your target, but you also lose all peripheral vision, and if you zoom right in to levels that might be unrealistic for a pilot with good eyesight to achieve 'naturally', you pretty much sacrifice all situational awareness.

 

Think of it as game-enforced target fixation. Not only are you completely focused on one single thing, but even if you do suddenly remember there's a world outside of the straw you're looking through, it's very disruptive to actually do anything about it.

 

It probably also depends on what your setup is. If you've got a large, high-res screen, zooming in will be much less necessary than if you're playing at a lower resolution.

That's what I thought too before I bought my new screen 27inch 2560x1440 but DCS tends to just not draw targets far away and you need to zoom in to get DCS to show you the target. I'm looking to enhance my visual range with some .lua config now.

Edited December 5, 2011 by degoe

[bluepilot76]

I keep labels off, for one thing I dont like having blue / red writing all over the sky and ground that ruins immersion. Two, Its completely cheating. Some enemy chopper sneaking up on you should be hard to see. This should encourage you to actually keep your wits about you and look for things that might be there. As it is, you know they are / are not so it takes one of the major things that a pilot should be doing (looking) away from the equation.

 

However, it is acknowledged that things are generally harder to see than they should be. I like how they do it in Rise Of Flight. then enemy aircraft when too small to be seen is given a very small biplane symbol. In black. You could still miss it if you were not looking too hard, but is just enbough to say theres something way out there that I should keep an eye on.

 

Other option, might be to simulate reflections. Just a little glint from the enemy choppers canopy as he crests the hill 10 miles away.

[Torment]

Yes, about binoculars. What are the two binocular looking things to the left and right side of the cockpit. They are at the bottom ledge of the canopy and I cant click them or do anything with them.

 

Flood lamps?

[Megagoth1702]

I would not use zoom if I had a monitor that covered my whole field of view with a super duper mega high resolution and trackIR, then I would not use the zoom at all. I would even pull out my old Binocs to look for targets on my screen from my chair.

 

But since I only got a 22" and no TrackIR, zoom & mouse helps me a lot.

[wolfstriked]

For me zooming in ruins immersion nevermind labels.I watch a ton of DCS videos and the ones I like the most are the ones that have no labels and the player doesn't zoom much.Looks more real to me this way and reminds me of the great Ironhand videos where he would say things like "somewhere down in that valley is a sam ready to fire on me" and then you see the ignition and smoke trail.

 

I see some posts about dots or vehicle magnification and both are good ideas.What about to flash the vehicle pixels.I present this video to show what I mean.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SbN8ftrTtaU

 

In it you will notice sams firing,large weapons being fired and resultant explosions from ground targets taking damage.Now turn vehicles into dots at certain distance and then have them flash but with muted colors so it doesn't show up like an explosion does now in this video.Maybe have stationary vehicles flash once every 5 seconds and moving vehicles one every 3 secs....as example.

[wolfstriked]

Or another idea would be to have tiny dots at a distance as mentioned and when you get closer they turn not into labels but into tiny symbols that could signify what they are.

 

+ = Sam

* = AAA

#= Tank

 

Make them a muted brown or even black to blend in better.

[KLR Rico]

As far as zoom goes, I'll zoom up to frame the HUD on my screen during an attack, but I feel that it's not cheating since it's about the same resolution and SA I'd expect from RL when focused and on a task. (FWIW, I use a 32" tv at 720p)

 

As far as labels go... Maybe to compensate for our natural acuity at picking out moving objects IRL, smoke/dust on moving targets should be more obvious?

 

My biggest problem with maintaining situational awareness in game is getting my bearings after pulling off an attack run. Missing all the little cues that you'd get as far as spatial awareness (vestibular system, sun, etc.) add up and I find myself slightly disoriented. "Great, where's that SAM now?"

 

I would suggest that if you center an object in your FOV at a reasonable range for a period of time, you get a persistent label and the target is effectively "spotted"... the closer the range and the longer it's been centered in the view, the more obvious and informational the label. If you don't reacquire the target in view often enough, the label should diminish until it's gone again.

 

IMO, it'd be a fairly realistic way of simulating the process of spotting and maintaining SA over targets that's otherwise difficult to capture with a sim.

[Toothcake]

I would not use zoom if I had a monitor that covered my whole field of view with a super duper mega high resolution and trackIR, then I would not use the zoom at all. I would even pull out my old Binocs to look for targets on my screen from my chair.

 

But since I only got a 22" and no TrackIR, zoom & mouse helps me a lot.

 

Pretty much this sans the TrackIR part.

[degoe]

For me zooming in ruins immersion nevermind labels.I watch a ton of DCS videos and the ones I like the most are the ones that have no labels and the player doesn't zoom much.Looks more real to me this way and reminds me of the great Ironhand videos where he would say things like "somewhere down in that valley is a sam ready to fire on me" and then you see the ignition and smoke trail.

 

I see some posts about dots or vehicle magnification and both are good ideas.What about to flash the vehicle pixels.I present this video to show what I mean.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SbN8ftrTtaU

 

In it you will notice sams firing,large weapons being fired and resultant explosions from ground targets taking damage.Now turn vehicles into dots at certain distance and then have them flash but with muted colors so it doesn't show up like an explosion does now in this video.Maybe have stationary vehicles flash once every 5 seconds and moving vehicles one every 3 secs....as example.

 

Or what if you add an arrow pointing to the target?

Or you can set DCS to game mode