Real Combat Startup.

[Shootist]

I know it's no longer "Ring the bell and run like Hell." but I was wondering if, in a real combat situation and especially if there was an immenent threat, would you calmly sit thru the left engine and then right spool up or would you be firing both at the same time and rolling as quickly as possible? And how about taxiing? Would your taxi speed be 20mph or 60? Just curious.:)

[nomdeplume]

The APU can't start both engines at the same time.

 

Additionally, I think a few extra minutes on the ground going through checklists etc. is well worth it. If something goes wrong in the air because you rushed the startup procedure, you've just scratched your flight at best, and possibly lost an airframe at worse. Same thing with rushing too fast while taxiing. At best you save a couple of minutes, at worst you trash your plane and possibly interfere with other flights in the process.

 

I'd think if there was any likelihood of there being an imminent threat, then you'd have aircraft on standby, either airborne or on the ramp/runway, ready to go when needed.

[Snoopy]

When we have jets on alert we have at least two crew chiefs and a weapons crew standing by at all times. If we have to scramble out jets the crew chiefs go to every jet and start the APU, all switches are set up to begin alignment/test systems once the APU generator is online. Then once the pilots get to the aircraft they are ready to go.

[Eddie]

In such a situation, the pilots would "cock" the jets before assuming an alert status. I'm not sure exactly what is involved in the process for the A-10C, but if you have a look at the A-10A flight manual the procedure in there for the A model will give you a bit of an idea.

 

Of course, it a situation as bad as you state in your post, you'd most likely have aircraft airborne 24/7 for on-call CAS. Which is exactly what happens in Afghanistan/Iraq. It's why the hog has such a long loiter time.

[Snoopy]

In such a situation, the pilots would "cock" the jets before assuming an alert status. I'm not sure exactly what is involved in the process for the A-10C, but if you have a look at the A-10A flight manual the procedure in there for the A model will give you a bit of an idea.

 

Of course, it a situation as bad as you state in your post, you'd most likely have aircraft airborne 24/7 for on-call CAS. Which is exactly what happens in Afghanistan/Iraq. It's why the hog has such a long loiter time.

 

That and our jets currently in Afghanistan hit tankers multiple times...an average mission is over 8 hours long...

[uri_ba]

I'm pretty sure they have "short cuts"

The most time consuming task is the INS alignment. I guess that they have the INS aligned and powered up via external power source. so when they climb aboard it's APU, engines, avionics take off external power and go.

 

it's probably 30' to 60' alert. (rather then sirens buzz and run thing usually associated with Air to Air scrambles)

[dotChuckles]

This is going back a few years now but I'm sure that in the 80's the RAF used to keep jets on 30 second alert status at the end of the runway with the engines running and crew in the pit.

 

If the order to scramble was given the GC would unplug the fuel lines that was constantly hot fueling the aircraft, close up the filler caps and off they went. I'm sure that's what the small hard standing just off to the side of the threshold you sometimes see at RAF stations was for.

 

Further aircraft were on 4 minute alert on a hard standing near the runway that were in a similar condition but with only the APU running.

 

Although I could be mistaken about all this.

[Eddie]

That and our jets currently in Afghanistan hit tankers multiple times...an average mission is over 8 hours long...

 

Yeah, and the number of sorties they are flying is mental. Every time I walked outside to the flightline there seemed to be a 2 ship either going up to coming down. A lot more than the Tornados were managing that's for sure. :D

[GGTharos]

You can spool up the engines and fly; as long as the SAS is engaged your plane is air-worthy in terms of an A-10. You can do in-flight alignment of your INS and start everything up during taxi/in-flight if you are in THAT much of a rush.

 

I'm pretty sure they have "short cuts"

The most time consuming task is the INS alignment. I guess that they have the INS aligned and powered up via external power source. so when they climb aboard it's APU, engines, avionics take off external power and go.

 

it's probably 30' to 60' alert. (rather then sirens buzz and run thing usually associated with Air to Air scrambles)

[Headspace]

Are the avionics ever started on ground power first? That's what I've been doing lately so that the INS can begin aligning almost immediately. Voltage drops during engine start (supposedly a bug according to the forum) which prevents everything from staying on while that happens...it's the best solution I've been able to come up with to save time during the startup sequence.

[Shootist]

Wow. Thanks for all those great answers. I thought on maybe one of the generated missions I saw some bad guys danger close. But maybe that was some lesser sim like Apache Air Assault.

Headspaces question deserves merit tho. I certainly be looking into that.:pilotfly:

[104th_Crunch]

When we have jets on alert we have at least two crew chiefs and a weapons crew standing by at all times. If we have to scramble out jets the crew chiefs go to every jet and start the APU, all switches are set up to begin alignment/test systems once the APU generator is online. Then once the pilots get to the aircraft they are ready to go.

 

Great! Now I don't feel cheap by having my sim A-10 starting the mission already spooled! I see now it can be totally realistic :)

[Snoopy]

I'm pretty sure they have "short cuts"

The most time consuming task is the INS alignment. I guess that they have the INS aligned and powered up via external power source. so when they climb aboard it's APU, engines, avionics take off external power and go.

 

it's probably 30' to 60' alert. (rather then sirens buzz and run thing usually associated with Air to Air scrambles)

 

One thing is the A-10 when on alert isn't the same as say an F-15. When we were on alert in Kuwait enforcing the southern no fly zone over Iraq our alert jets were only for CSAR.

 

You can spool up the engines and fly; as long as the SAS is engaged your plane is air-worthy in terms of an A-10. You can do in-flight alignment of your INS and start everything up during taxi/in-flight if you are in THAT much of a rush.

 

True but I can promise you that isn't how we do it.

 

Are the avionics ever started on ground power first? That's what I've been doing lately so that the INS can begin aligning almost immediately. Voltage drops during engine start (supposedly a bug according to the forum) which prevents everything from staying on while that happens...it's the best solution I've been able to come up with to save time during the startup sequence.

 

Not with AGE but with the APU, yes.

[Teeps]

Not with AGE but with the APU, yes.

Does that mean the current behaviour where switching from APU power to engine generator power knocks the IRU out of alignment is incorrect then?

[Snoopy]

Does that mean the current behaviour where switching from APU power to engine generator power knocks the IRU out of alignment is incorrect then?

 

Known bug

[KaspeR32]

Known bug

 

Oh man, that is good news. I always thought it was odd but assumed it was just the way it worked. Does this bug also effect the MFDs restarting also?

[Crosser]

it's probably 30' to 60' alert. (rather then sirens buzz and run thing usually associated with Air to Air scrambles)

 

 

If you're scrambling A10s for Air to Air, you've got more pressing issues to worry about :smilewink:

[Zenra]

If you're scrambling A10s for Air to Air, you've got more pressing issues to worry about :smilewink:

Very well put! :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

... such as downed pilots?

[StrongHarm]

The thing that separates combat effectiveness between the U.S. Military and Xcountry Military is training, procedures, and how they're adhered to. Procedures don't vary based on the threat. The procedures are the same every time. The crew chief or pilot does startup by the checklist (while reading the checklist) every single time without fail. I had the unique opportunity to be in ground combat as well as aviation support, and I can tell you that it's the same wherever you go.

 

SOP is what makes us a professional, effective, and deadly military force. It is the ten commandments.

[GGTharos]

This is not the case. I have a buddy going through USAF training right now. You are to memorize and know all your critical procedures by heart without fail; this includes bold-face. You are expected to be able to do just about everything from memory, and FAST.

 

The crew chief or pilot does startup by the checklist (while reading the checklist) every single time without fail.

[StrongHarm]

That makes sense GGTharos. Does he say there are shortcuts, or is it simply memorization of the standard operating procedure? I've been out of the military for a long time. Deviating from SOP in any way used to get you brought up on charges.

[GGTharos]

He didn't give me details pertaining to procedure in operations, but during training you're really expected to know everything without reading, at least that's how it came across.

They even grill you on these things and you're expected to tell them everything in perfect detail right then and there, IIRC.

 

I also met with the east coast Strike Eagle demo team, and they didn't seem to use any checklists whatsoever when doing their stuff.

 

I'm not trying to say that they'd never use checklists though - all I'm saying is that it appears as if if it's on paper, it's supposed to be in your head, too. Apparently a lot of people wash out for things like not being able to remember the checklists or being too slow in the pit, etc.

[Snoopy]

This is not the case. I have a buddy going through USAF training right now. You are to memorize and know all your critical procedures by heart without fail; this includes bold-face. You are expected to be able to do just about everything from memory, and FAST.

 

I'm in the USAF and you are not suppose to memorize tech data, Emergency Procedures yes but not Tech Data...now, I'm not saying it doesn't happen because I know most of our daily tasks by memory.

 

For example, when we run the APU you have to have the -71JG out and followed step by step. But, before you can run the APU (or engines for that matter) you have to pass the emergency procedures test.

 

Launch, recovery, EOR, preflight, postflight, thruflight we don't have to go step by step from the Work Cards but we have to have them out. Plus, once you've done a few launch/recovery's it's simple, unless you have an emergency...

[GGTharos]

Thanks for the input Paul :)