Support for more types of Head Tracking Software.

[Korn]

We don't. It would be rather difficult really, since nobody stole NP code. Which is closed source, while the alternatives are open source, easy to check if you know what you're doing, not so easy when you believe NP bots bs without thinking.

[Wolf Rider]

Track IR, is actually Defacto Standard

[swift]

100 Total Signatures

:yay:

I took the liberty of making a quick Spanish translation and posted it in the relevant forum here.

[jireland607]

I took the liberty of making a quick Spanish translation and posted it in the relevant forum here.

 

That is great, thank you very much!

[manfrez01]

Signed.

 

There are many reasons to support this project support.

Monopolize an agreement or standard is technically a dinosaur-state.

[PoleCat]

Sounds an awful lot like spilled milk to me.

 

For the years of enjoyment I have gotten from my TIR I feel they are really fairly priced. I also feel strongly that NP deserves the lions share of the market because well, they succeeded and made that place for themselves. They did it and did not hack or steal anyone elses work to get there. If others want to do the same they should do it the same way IMHO.

 

Others hacking their files and then asking for permission afterwards sounds backwards to me as well. Further making them out to be the bad guys seems even worse. They worked hard to get where they are and now because people want it for free they should give it up? I wouldn't. And the difference between stealing NPs code and hacking their files is a small one.

 

Best of luck.

 

Out

[sobek]

Sounds an awful lot like spilled milk to me.

 

Are you perfectly sure you truly understand the situation at hand and the consequences?

 

They did it and did not hack or steal anyone elses work to get there. If others want to do the same they should do it the same way IMHO.

 

They didn't hack, but they now use their weight on the market to supress developers from supporting other programs as well. This is not how a free market works, it's monopoly. You can't break the rules just because you were the first to the party.

 

Also you make it sound like people had to copy the innards of TrackIR to make their programs work. This is, AFAIK, not the case. Tracking algorithms have been around for a long time and are well established in the public domain. No need to copy anything essential of TrackIR. What was reverse engineered is the interface, so that programs could talk to games over said interface. This interface is a very simple piece of code, so saying that those devs are riding on NP's back is besides the point, even more so as support for the interface is coded in by the game developers, not NaturalPoint. What i find most cynical/dislikeable about this argument though is that all free tracking programs that i am aware of support open source interfaces, so they were able to come up with solutions entirely of their own, but they fail to get those implemented into games, not to a small part thanks to NP's adhesion contracts.

 

If their product is so superior as they like to claim, then NP should not have the need to frantically keep everybody else out of their market. If somebody else comes up with something better or finds a way to make the same product for less money, well tough luck. The know-how that went into TrackIR is greatly overestimated, IMHO, which is supported by none of NaturalPoints patents for TrackIR actually being granted. I'm not saying that they didn't come up with some nice ideas, but that doesn't give them the right to reap that market for themselves for an infinite time and with such means.

 

Don't get me wrong, i do use TrackIR as well and am satisfied, but i got mine 2nd hand. The price of one unit is, compared to products of comparable capability and hardware, quite high. IMHO this market could use some healthy competition.

Edited May 28, 2011 by sobek

[Kuky]

signed... I use TrackIR 5 and love the product but don't like the idea/reality for NP to effectively block others... so I support this idea

[Wolf Rider]

Perhaps if the "competition" was true competition and relied on their own work totally, without provision for hacks included or (playing people for mugs) move provision onto the end user (retaining the means in the app), or "mooching" off NP softwares directly... then NP may see things differently. (I don't know for sure as I don't speak for them)

Definitely though, if the alternatives took the "high road" and offered a "clean package" (that is without any provision for the hack, supplying the means or directly the mooching) and NP blocked, then there might be something to run with (but then Open or Defacto standard comes in). Sadly, it seems the alternative/s would rather run down/ denigrate NP instead of taking the highroad.

 

 

Interoperatability, is two or more systems/ programs/ apps communicating with each other and exchanging data... an example of interoperability, is, FC2 and Blackshark. FSX and il2 1946, for instance, are not interoperable.

 

Open Standard? a product arrived at through round table discussion by interested parties and duly tested and published

I believe ATX Form Factor is an open standard, for example

 

Defacto Standard? the originator has every right to protect or open up their work.

I believe the QWERTY keyboard is a defacto standard, for example

 

Copyright protection technologies? (encryption) is illegal to circumvent (except in defined situations)

Edited May 28, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Steel Jaw]

Do not agree if it porks what we have...which it may very well...nothing wrong with TIR IMHO.

[sobek]

Do not agree if it porks what we have...which it may very well

 

How so?

[Wolf Rider]

@ Mower...

 

That is one reason NP may have chosen to protect their work... so that the "headtracking experience" as a whole, isn't porked (as you put it :) )

[jireland607]

If I could offer another view on this, sorry it's a long one. I am going to add to the debate from the viewpoint of just one product. I have tried to generalise in all my posts but this time I will use FaceTrackNoIR (FTNIR for the rest of the post) as an example of how NaturalPoints stance is bad for us all, INCLUDING existing users of TrackIR.

 

I am sure you are all aware of FTNIR. It is a freeware head tracking software that was released just last year. It tracks facial features and converts these into data which is then outputted to many different formats. Yes, to all of those who have not heard of it, you do not need a cap with IR LED's stuck on it or a Borg like attachment on your headphones. How cool is that? This is not, like some have suggested, an evolution of TrackIR. This is a completely new innovation, one that some may say, everybody would want (Nobody can really say they enjoy wearing the headset).

 

Now, as I said, the software is freeware. The project started with two people, and now there is assistance from a further three. None of them are paid. They have started from scratch using a generic tracking API and got it to work in ArmA and FlightGear. Since then they have worked hard to improve the response and make it compatible with more games. They get no rewards for their work, there are donations but these will never cover the work involved let alone make a profit. FTNIR was developed from the ground up.

 

He has developed a good product so now he wants it to work with more games, and why not? Trouble is that Eagle Dynamics only lets one interface into their game, you've guessed it, TrackIR. Does the developer of FTNIR want to use TrackIR's? I'm sure he does not. These interfaces are very simple and there are bunch of different ways of doing it, some better than NP's implementation.

 

So although the developer of FTNIR does not want or need to use the TrackIR interface, he is forced to do so by this ridiculous agreement. {With regards to the clean program, I am sure that if games offered another interface, then the developer would gladly remove TrackIR from FTNIR, its only there for necessity}

 

If NaturalPoint continue in their ways, what for FTNIR? Well, if nobody can use it, then why would the developer continue spending his time and energy in improving it. FTNIR and all the other tracking systems will disappear. And let's not forget, unlike some have suggested, he has copied NO code from TrackIR.

 

I'm sure TrackIR is very good and has it's place but let it sell on its own merits, but frankly, I would rather do away with my headset, or at least have the choice. As for NaturalPoint, if a freeware developer can produce what is arguably a better head tracking system in just a year, does it not show have they have rested on their laurels and relied on monopolizing rather than developing great software?

 

Controversial? Let the flaming begin :)

[Wolf Rider]

perhaps Naturalpoint just want a true competitior, instead of a rip off?

 

 

*Editz: we don't want flaming, it does no party any good... least of all the flamer, but allow me to expand on the above point... why should any sim/ developer listen, when the "competing product" has rip off functionality? and why should Naturalpoint listen when their product is being ripped off by the "competitor?

 

riddle me that

Edited May 28, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Druid_]

^nope no flaming from me, completely agree. Good post.

 

As Sobek said, they are using their weight to monopolise & control the face tracking games market. This will always be a bad thing for the consumer.

 

Hopefully future developers will take the bold move of supporting FTN & show TIR the door when they send in the heavies. Once enough games of sufficient standard & sales quantity supporting FTN are in the market maybe NP (TIR) will have a rethink. Until then we are stuck with them methinks.

 

@WR , you don't honestly think NP protect their work out of some desire to save the head tracking experience surely? Its simply this ... $$$$ at the end of the day, like it always will be.

 

Bring on the competition ! When Mower's TIR finally gives up I'm sure he won't complain when it costs half the price to replace (which he won't if there are better solutions around of course).

[jireland607]

lol

[Wolf Rider]

@ Druid...

 

Competition is perfectly fine, no problem with that whatsoever... true competition, that is ;)

 

true competition is nVidia and ATI (but developers have to cater for both if they want run physics to cater for their customers, or develop their own propriety physics engine - more RnD bucks and more headaches for them

 

 

*edit a good example of "the headtracking experience" would be the term, "to google". Sure there are many internet search engnes, but everybody says; "I Googled it".

 

Also your "showing TIR the door". Isn't that same rundown that the alternative headtracking people are complaining about and denigrating Naturalpoint?[]i?[/i]

Edited May 28, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Druid_]

@ WR

 

I have no idea what you're talking about. "true competition" nVidia & ATI, "to google". Give the analogies a break & stick with the facts, many of which have been presented eloquently.

 

There have been a plethora of posts which have described the competition and if by the fact you mean they haven't got the backing of millions of Dollars & a huge brand name then so what.

 

There is lots of competition out there to NP and its in use commercially in a variety of uses & products, just not games.

 

To put it simply, its very hard to compete in a market where a single company monopolises. NP uses this monopoly to stifle competition through forcing developers to accept a single head tracking solution (TIR) to their software, either that or No Support!

 

"showing TIR the door" in the context I wrote was from the developer perspective & not from the NP perspective. Your statement doesn't make sense.

 

You've made clear you're views & of course you're entitled to them but given the facts presented throughout this thread you appear not willing to change your stance. However, I am liable to change mine given sufficient facts & evidence, at the moment everything that invovles NP has a distinct bovine smell.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Druid_

[Frostiken]

There's something wrong with this petition, in my opinion. The specified alternatives for headtracking are just too many.

 

 

All face/head tracking needs is six numbers - Position and angle of X, Y, and Z. All ED needs to do is provide an open input in the game for those six numbers.

[Wolf Rider]

@ Druid...

 

what is my stance?

[Dudikoff]

We all know your your stance that they hacked or ripped off Naturalpoint as it is repeated many times without any proof or arguments. On the other hands, if what the people working with ED say about agreement with the NP is true, it sounds like a blackmail to keep their monopolistic position. Now why would they do that if they had a superior product and had nothing to fear from some open source "hack" projects? Well, guess what? Since the advent of face tracking, their non-inventive consumer line of products becomes obsolete over night because it's unnecessarily clunky to use (as you need to wear some kind of a reflector) and very expensive for what you get.

 

The problem is that with the open interface and the open source tracking software which works on webcams, they would lose the need for specific hardware to sell to you and it is questionable if their software would offer enough edge over the free solution and I guess it would be the end of the line for their flight-sim product line (and maybe some others).

 

I have Track IR 3 with VE which I bought used because I couldn't afford to pay the full price. Later, when I could afford to upgrade it to 4 or 5, I saw no point to it (just bought that trackclip thing) as it seemed to be just a refined TIR3 experience with all the same problems and ever growing price (I don't want to wear headphones with the clip or the cap with the reflectors). So, I think they were milking the community long enough with the same product and I'd rather use joystick hats then give them THAT MUCH money for the same thing.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Dudikoff

[VAOZoky]

signed

[Kuky]

ijozic, I have to say it is not correct to say version3 and version5 of TrackIR are the same thing as I've had version3 with VE and version 5 which I have now is noticeably better in about everything (tracking, look of the TrackIR unit, re centering if it looses track and better control of profile curves)... I know this is beside the point of current discussion but I wanted to correct you on this and to get that out of the way so it doesn't look like NP are ripping people off with TrackIR 5 if you already have older version.

[sebro83]

signed, 149 so far.

[Boberro]

Many wise words here. Unfair monopoly of one company has to be removed.

If their product was so great there wouldn't be fear of FT and other solutions.

They are desperately trying to save status quo of their position, using cheap tricks. This will not stop people from using other solutions anyway, only comfort is less without official support.