Labels or No

[dbeaty]

I've got about 24 hours in the air with the sim, and I started thinking about labels. I've been playing with them on. But there is no way I could have been so successful without them - finding enemy ground units. Not just labels but the little red dots that proceed them. What's the general though on this, should we turn them off once we get comfortable to experience reality a little more faithfully? In this case, I assume relying on JTAC and mission briefings, or long careful TGP scans. Or do labels provide a situational awareness crutch missing from our 2D world view.

 

DB:closedeyes:

[159th_Viper]

It definitely adds a lot with no labels - sort of levels the playing field to a certain extent.

 

There's that frantic 'head-on-a-swivel' fear that one gets when attempting to identify/spot a Tor or the like while your RWR is screaming and you're bouncing around from cockpit to ground to cockpit to ground trying to find him before you're well within his WEZ..........Cannot get that with labels on.

 

That said - it's your SIM. You fly it as you wish :)

[Machinist]

When I first started with this sim, I didn't even know there were labels, and from day one have played with them off. I got online today and finally did see the labels for the first time, and I felt like I was cheating. Just spraying my gun all over these big red blobs. I wasn't feelin' it. :joystick:

[Frostiken]

I think a neutered version of the labels are fair (I replaced mine with red dots that only show up at super-close range) for three reasons:

 

1) JTAC, AIs suck ass at informing you of threats.

--- JTAC doesn't inform you of new threats, absolutely does not give you up to date information on moving targets and only tells you where they were when you asked no matter how long ago that was (SERIOUSLY?!), and could really stand to give better information in general ("Two Zeus in formation... SA-8 3 miles north of coordinates...")

--- AIs can 'find' things but are terrible at communication - all they do is yell about Mud Spikes which isn't useful at all in a battlefield saturated with AAA. How about you use our fancy net and your bitchin' pod to point it at a threat and send me that information?

 

2) Computers do a terrible job of simulating finding targets in real life.

--- Poor visual fidelity as a result of being on a computer monitor. I propose that they implement an optional system of non-linear inverse perspective scaling, wherein at certain distances, distant objects actually get a little bit larger so that they can't 'hide' between pixels.

--- Lack of real-world visuals, like great clouds of dust behind tanks tearing up a field, or general clouds and detritus from battle.

 

3) The targeting pod.

--- Remarkably hit-or-miss FLIR modeling means tanks can hide in plain sight in the middle of an open field.

 

I'm playing with labels off right now but there's no shame in turning them on (though I'd recommend nerfing them a bit, mostly because the huge complicated labels are useless and ugly). Hopefully someday we'll have solutions to these problems.

[MadTommy]

For me a large part of the sim is locating targets...It can be tough but rewarding.

 

I suggest you turn them off. Otherwise its shooting fish in a barrel.

[gear_monkey]

For me I played with them on while I was learning the systems, JTAC interactions, and getting comfortable with the HOTAS finger dance.

 

I think trying to learn the sim WHILE trying to locate targets would be very frustrating.

 

Now that I've got the hang of the Hog, I go about 80% of the time with them off.

 

I do feel that the labels bridge the gap from real life to sim. In real life I know there is so much more intel and briefings and other types of inputs that "complete" the battlefield mental picture for the pilots that we don't experience.

 

I really like the idea of a minimal icon but I don't know how to do that.

[GCMallet]

Running with labels off makes the game/simulator both more frustrating but also much more rewarding.

[Nate--IRL--]

Although I don't fly with labels myself, there is a definite case for using them, as you get an appreciation of the whole battle unfolding around you. Try maybe changing them to Black dots rather than the Coloured information blocks you get as default.

 

Nate

[Heli Shed]

For me a large part of the sim is locating targets...It can be tough but rewarding.

 

I suggest you turn them off. Otherwise its shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Agreed. Its rare to find a a MP server with labels on TBH.

 

But to echo viper, its your sim.

 

Why not try training offline with the labels on, to allow you the time to get used to the system of work with regards to aquiring and locking a target?

 

Alternatively, why not try using the active pause in SP?

 

GL

 

'T'

[SmokeyTheLung]

That said - it's your SIM. You fly it as you wish :)

 

well said

 

I personally can't even stand the radio menu text popping up on the screen, so labels are a definite no go for me:D

[Dusty Rhodes]

I flew with them on my first 30 hours in the sim. Now my wingie Griff has talked me into going without, kicking and screaming of course :) . It allowed me to learn my HOTAS settings and the systems of the A-10 while not having to worry about having my head on swivel. Now I know my HOTAS settings and know fairly well the A-10 systems, it is time to turn them off and use my TrackIR for what it was intended.

[Ginsu80]

I go with the sorta version. All my labels are the same color, black, and show up at very close range. What I figured a pilot could spot by unaided eye in the cockpit. Still leaves me with questions as to what the dot is, and plenty of fun trying to find targets at range. I have rolled in on a dot thinking it was a target only to discover it was a friendly so ID'ing a target is still a must. I feel it makes up for the fact that I am playing on a small monitor with limited resolution. To me its actually more realistic.

[dbeaty]

Very good points. Those moving into MP should be comfortable without them and could someone point on the way to alter labels to make them the black dots...that sounds perfect for now in SP. Hopefully it's just in a config file we can edit?

 

On the subject of entering a CAS mission, Is there a good way to identify friendlies if not using JTAC? I've tried with JTAC and called a contact only to have them yell "Those are friendlies!" or something like that. Yikes!

[cichlidfan]

Very good points. Those moving into MP should be comfortable without them and could someone point on the way to alter labels to make them the black dots...that sounds perfect for now in SP. Hopefully it's just in a config file we can edit?

 

The file you want is labels.lua in this directory

 

C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS A-10C\Config\View

 

It is pretty self-explanatory.

[Kaiza]

Labels off most definitely in my opinion. Of course switch back if you arent getting the same enjoyment out of the game, but as stated you will get a lot more satisfaction out of finding and destroying targets with them off. Yes the argument that the screen res doesn't give you the detail you would have in real life is valid, however I think using the zoom function is a far better way to compensate for this. Using zoom and having labels of any sort is too much IMO. Not to mention labels make your screenshots lose all cred.:thumbup:

[Ginsu80]

I turn labels off for screenshots of course, and when I say mine only come on at close range I mean very close. I think I have them currently set at 4km for ground targets, and 10km for air targets. I remember reading Chuck Yeager's autobiography where he claimed to be able to make out the specks of airplanes at almost 50mi. 10km seemed appropriate. Of course with the colors all the same it could be the other section, or it could be a Mig. I tried playing with labels off, and felt like it was unfair. I admit, I play on a laptop so that doesn't help. With labels on, it felt like a turkey shoot. I think I have struck a nice balance of situational awareness and realism. Rolling in on what you think is an enemy tank, zooming in and realizing it's an M1 still happens so it doesn't feel like a cheat to me. And I use my FLIR a lot, with the targets only being labeled as a dot at 4km thats not enough time to set up a Maverick run and well inside of SAM engagement range. Generally I see a label on the ground I back off, I know generally where it was but can't see the dot anymore at 10+km, conduct a FLIR search, ID and roll in hot.

[BTTW-DratsaB]

I could never play with labels on. But, I do use the map with unit icons liberally, it is still very hard to find some targets (you can pretend its Jstars :D ). You can also decide not use it and only rely on it when you get really stuck, which you can't do with labels.

 

Interesting to see how others play.

Edited June 20, 2011 by BTTW-DratsaB

[dbeaty]

Map view is a great tip.

 

For weaning off labels, to make them dots at 4km. I tried editing the view.lau (after changing permissions and saving a back up) and have it so air,ground & navy labels show up at 4000 (4km). Deleted all other ranges, only leaving the one item. But I was unsure of the symbology. Air uses "'" ground uses "|", I think at 4000. But they all look like dots in the sim. Also, I edited the RGB color value of enemy 0,0,0 but they still show up red.

[SmokeyTheLung]

With a sim that look like this how could you use labels...:music_whistling:

[Phazon]

I think a neutered version of the labels are fair (I replaced mine with red dots that only show up at super-close range) for three reasons:

 

1) JTAC, AIs suck ass at informing you of threats.

--- JTAC doesn't inform you of new threats, absolutely does not give you up to date information on moving targets and only tells you where they were when you asked no matter how long ago that was (SERIOUSLY?!), and could really stand to give better information in general ("Two Zeus in formation... SA-8 3 miles north of coordinates...")

--- AIs can 'find' things but are terrible at communication - all they do is yell about Mud Spikes which isn't useful at all in a battlefield saturated with AAA. How about you use our fancy net and your bitchin' pod to point it at a threat and send me that information?

 

2) Computers do a terrible job of simulating finding targets in real life.

--- Poor visual fidelity as a result of being on a computer monitor. I propose that they implement an optional system of non-linear inverse perspective scaling, wherein at certain distances, distant objects actually get a little bit larger so that they can't 'hide' between pixels.

--- Lack of real-world visuals, like great clouds of dust behind tanks tearing up a field, or general clouds and detritus from battle.

 

3) The targeting pod.

--- Remarkably hit-or-miss FLIR modeling means tanks can hide in plain sight in the middle of an open field.

 

I'm playing with labels off right now but there's no shame in turning them on (though I'd recommend nerfing them a bit, mostly because the huge complicated labels are useless and ugly). Hopefully someday we'll have solutions to these problems.

 

I agree 100%. I have turned off all labels and have now only just started using JTAC in my missions and I've quickly found out how useless they can be when attacking anything other than static targets.

 

Technically JTAC is supposed to have a function of updating us of the target's status (Report BDA) but I can't seem to get it to work at all. :(

 

Here's what it says in the manual:

 

Request BDA - JTAC will update you on the status of the directed target.

 

Maybe it only works when JTAC is in Type 1 or 2 mode where they are closer to the target I'm not sure but everytime I've used the command I don't get a reply. I would also imagine that a JTAC unit would be smart enough to update the A-10 pilot if the position and heading of his target changed significantly in real-life without him having to request it. Would love to see some improvement here.

 

I also agree that AI wingmen could be way more helpful than they are currently. They should be using the message system and the TAD to send out points of interest and enemy locations ontop of just calling it out. Haven't used it before but I'm guessing the TAD has a function to send locations to wingmen much like how JTAC will send you the target location on your TAD?

 

In regards to the visual side of things, I'd love to see more effects on vehicles such as engine exhausts and so on. This would then stand out in FLIR. Also I think the terrain is not "grey" enough in FLIR that it seems to have too many hot spots. The texture of the terrain shows up too much in FLIR when I would have thought it would all be a dull colour regardless of details of the terrain. This is how I've seen FLIR simulated in other sim games (ArmA 2) and it makes more sense to me.

 

That said I'm getting better at identifying targets as I put more time in the game. The real pilots have an easier time though I'm sure!

[Iceman2011]

They need to start by cooling off those trees and ground first, since they're almost as hot as tanks, also agree with you Phazon, that JTAC should inform, if the target has left the original spot, and most probably does IRL, don't you think? I haven't ever got report BDA do anything, no answer nothing, so moving targets + JTAC = no match

[delta9856]

I have about the same amount of sim time as you and lately I've been playing without labels. It definitely adds more realism and challenge to the sim. Usually I use the TGP with WHOT (Or BHOT, depending on the situation) to find my targets. Even though JTAC could use a bit of polishing I still find it very useful for finding targets as well. As others have said, its YOUR sim and you can fly it however you want. If you would prefer keeping the labels on for the time being, that's fine. Hope this helps :)

[cichlidfan]

I too, quickly dropped the labels but were I to have them on I would have to mod them a bit.

 

If nothing else, when going in with guns the labels make it harder to see the target, I would prefer them to vanish entirely once you get closer than a certain distance. Easy to change but I never bothered.

 

Of course, at any distance, more than about three targets near each other makes the labels just a mass of letters anyway.

[Weta43]

I've been playing without labels. It definitely adds more realism and challenge to the sim.

 

It definitely adds more challenge, and I'd say more immersion, but for reasons people have covered above (limitations of graphics, displays, etc) the realism claim is arguable.

Personally - I'd sit in the

'appropriately neutered labels are more realistic than no l labels at all' (in terms of the ability of players to find an identify targets in the sim)

camp ...

 

Harder does not necessarily = more real...

[winz]

I've tuned my lables so they are all the same collor and don't display any information about the target.

I try to fly without them, but turn them on on occassion. Mostly when I've problem finding targets that are required to trigger some mission trigger. I utterly hate the 'destroy everything or the mission is a utter failure' scheme some missions follow.