WIP - Improved CBU-97/105

[StageFright]

I just went from 6 to midnight....

[lobo]

A little WIP set of images of the improved modeling of the CBU-97/105.

 

Wow. THis thing gets any more realistic and I'm gonna have to get a helmet and 02 mask. ;)

[EtherealN]

You could rig that up to the O2 in-game through export and starve yourself of oxygen whenever it happens to your in-game pilot.

 

...I wouldn't recommend it though. Sounds dangerous. :P

[Frostiken]

Yeah, I've seen similar things, but the "quality" of the sources are roughly on the level of wikipedia and conflicts with other things I've heard. (Doesn't mean they are wrong either, but there's so many things that get lost in translation when a PR dude from the manufacturer is talking to a journo.) Could go either way I suppose, but my understanding is that they basically do their dispersal sequence on HOF, scan for a target, and when they see it they try to kill it.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if there's additional magic going on though, there always is, but it sort of becomes like asking me to comment on the comparative stealthiness of different stealth coatings... :P

 

Would be interesting then to put in reduced damage / penetration over distance, so you have to evaluate your target and decide if a closer burst at a risk of covering a small area is preferable, or if you can cover a wider area and still have enough energy to punch through the hull...

[aaron886]

Delete this post and lock thread... perfect ending!

[OutOnTheOP]

First off; looks AWESOME. I can honestly say I'm amazed by how quickly the guys at ED got that put together, and their responsiveness in continuing to improve the simulation even after release.

 

However, there are still fixes to be made. Which is understandable; it's still a work in progress. If it were perfect, it wouldn't be a "WIP". It'd be a patch download on the DCS webpage.

 

Frostiken may have phrased things a bit abrasively, but I totally agree with him, the skeets do seem to be detonating a bit high. Now, I say "seem", because I don't have hard evidence to indicate they DON'T detonate that high, but like Frostiken, every picture and video I have seen show the skeets detonating at a fairly consistent 30-50 meters. In the in-game detonation pictures, the top EFP "tracer" is at least 70 meters up (going by 9.5-ish meters length for a T72/T80 chassis. Possibly higher; as smoke from the skeet detonation has not yet been implemented, so we can't tell if the detonation occurred higher or if the "tracer" is shown at it's origin.

 

I do base my impression that the skeets should be detonating at 30-50 meters on a few fact-based assumptions (in addition to the photos):

 

1) the skeets have a laser. This implies a ranging function. It does not preclude high detonations; just means the munition should be able to decide if it is or is not in range and detonate only when it IS in range. As the videos depict 30-50 meters AGL, I assume that is the detonation range.

 

2) The dispensers have a radar altimeter that activates the rocket when the dispenser gets down to a certain altitude AGL. CBU HOB settings should (from what I can tell) have nothing to do with the skeet height of detonation, or even with the height at which the dispensers dispense the skeets. The dispenser rides the parachute down as long as it needs to until the radar altimeter tells it to fire the rocket and distribute the skeets- again, photo and video evidence indicates this is about 40 meters. CBU HOB settings probably only impacts how early the dispensers are kicked from the CBU (and therefore how far each dispenser disperses).

 

3) The skeets are supposed to self-destruct at 15 ft AGL if it does not find a target; this again implies each skeet has a ranging function

 

But even if the detonation height is never adjusted, this looks like a pretty smokin' implementation of the '97.

 

*edit* information about the radar altimeters and active laser, as well as visual estimates of detonation height all taken from open-source Textron promotional videos.

 

*edit 2* Seriously, Aaron? That's a little reactive; this forum exists for the sole purpose of letting the fans (us) gather and debate. Why take that away just because someone disagrees? Beyond that, the community is a valuable source of information and feedback to ED to help them improve their product. I would hope that ED considers the feedback and/or criticism they get here, researches the matter and the information forum members post, and THEN decide if they want to change it or not. If they find the forum member was correct, and "fix" the game, everyone wins. If they find the forum member was incorrect, that's fine. If they find the forum member was correct, and decide not to change it anyway, that's ED's perogative. But it's still the forum member's perogative to disagree as much as he wants.

Edited August 5, 2011 by OutOnTheOP

[latearrival]

You guys really are taking this sim up to eleven!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll7rWiY5obI

Edited August 5, 2011 by latearrival

[Outlaw24]

Nice job even the WIP is great, this sim just keep getting better what's next.....

Thanks for the heads up!

[Cornbread]

I just went from 6 to midnight....

 

Too far....

[WildFire]

Wow I thought they would just adjust the munition properties so that it acted "like" a 97. But they went and modeled the pucks and everything. That is TITS.

[aaron886]

*edit 2* Seriously, Aaron?

 

Slow down there Tolstoy, it was a joke.

[Frostiken]

If it does have a radar altimeter then I imagine what I said is correct - that regardless of how high it breaks open (which would still allow you to cover greater area), the actual weapons themselves - the BLU-108 and the skeets - are programmed to work around a certain height-over-target to maximize the effectiveness of the penetrator shot. So a higher HOF would break open the package and release the 108s, which would float around and spread out, but would still only activate at their pre-set altitude of, say, 200 feet at which point they begin spinning, rise up to around 400 feet and hurl the skeets out. Otherwise, a higher HOF would just have the skeets shooting things too far away to be effective, I would imagine.

 

Globalsecurity had this to say:

 

A rocket motor within the submunition fires, imparting spin and upward velocity. Upon reaching the proper spin rate and altitude, the 4 heat-sensing Skeets are released at right angles.

 

Which seems to suggest that yes, there is an 'ideal' release altitude that the BLU-108 strives to achieve which would answer the question of the radar altimeter.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Frostiken

[XarBat]

This makes me wish I had not reassigned some of the Num Pad keys to other things. Does this just add an animation or is this changing the way they work; like the seemingly 100% success rate. The HOF has to be for the 1st submunition dispersal, with the subsubmunitions(BLUs) released at a fixed altitude. What would be the point of even having gunbarrals if a 7.5 pound object in mid air can shoot off a projectile that goes through the top of most modern tanks 1000 feet away with 100% accuracy.

 

Edit: Is the time setting of the clusters the high drag TOF?

Edited August 6, 2011 by XarBat

[GGTharos]

It doesn't suggest anything for the skeets, just the delivery vehicle ... and 'reaching the correct altitude' might be nothing more than the timing of the rocket firing. They're pretty reliable for such a thing.

 

The radar altimeter in turn can be quite a bit more rudimentary than most people would imagine: You don't necessarily need to measure distance in the 'good old ping' fashion ... rather, much like a fuze would - you measure the strength of the returned signal or the time elapsed since you got a return of a certain strength. This too can be pretty reliable, and is used in bomb fuzes to include the only nuclear weapons used in combat. The same fuze was used as a tail-approach warning sensor in P-51Ds ;).

 

Edit: There are certain sources that directly name a radar altimeter on the BLU-108. The skeets themselves are capable of 'profiling' targets with the laser, but I'm not sure this suggests rangefinding capability. The self-destruct modes appear to be timed, and the useful footprint seems to suggest that the 'optimal altitude' is quite varied. Those skeets are going to drop down quite a bit at their maximum range of 820' from release.

 

Which seems to suggest that yes, there is an 'ideal' release altitude that the BLU-108 strives to achieve which would answer the question of the radar altimeter.

Edited August 6, 2011 by GGTharos

[XarBat]

So what does the "FNC TIME" setting in the inventory page control?

[OutOnTheOP]

Textron BLU108/ CBU97 industry promotional video:

 

It does specify a radar altimeter in the BLU108 (though in all fairness, doesn't specify how precise it is or how it functions).

 

I also took note of one clip where a BLU108, firing it's rocket, gets down to probably a couple meters above the ground before it starts to rise again. I think if there has to be guesswork on the proper skeet deployment/ detonation altitude, it would be better to err on the side of "a little low" than "a little high", from what the videos show.

[159th_Viper]

No. The fins should be folded before release from the jet and then the whole thing should spin 1500RPM. It's a feature that was missing so far......

 

Please provide me with a link to corroborate that info and I'll look into it.

 

Ta

[OutOnTheOP]

Regarding the fin pop-out on the CBU body, see

 

.... I know, it's Future Weapons starrying Huskyvoice McToolbag, but it still has some good footage. Check 3:20 for fin popout.

 

HOWEVER, the 1500rpm does not seem true; this one has no rotation. I'll see if I can find any other videos where it DOES spin, but off the top of my head, the CBU does NOT spin; all submunition dispersion is done by pyrotechnic charge, as best I can tell.

[OutOnTheOP]

found another non-spinning CBU97 video, but I THINK it's from the same drop depicted in the last one:

 

 

*edit* now that I look at it again, you can see the CBU97 dispensing in the Textron advertisement video I posted earlier, as well.... it does not appear to spin in that one either. But the fins are clearly pop-out type.

Edited August 6, 2011 by OutOnTheOP

[skouras]

after 15 years of flying simulations

i admit this company is the best by far

they know how to make their people happy

bravo Wags :thumbup:

Απιστευτη δουλεια...

[SUBS17]

Wow this looks awesome.

[Erdem]

Incredible, ED you're my favourite developer ever! :D

[Ramrod_45]

You might find this interesting. Check the video at bottom right of the page.

 

http://www.textrondefense.com/products/smart-weapons-air/blu-108.php

[hendo97]

Looking good ED keep up the good work!

[Kula66]

Absolutely amazing! Great work ED!