Cheating AI.

[StarHopper]

The AI in this game is bad enough when your going against the ground. But the heli's and Jets are the killers. Like the ground vehicles, they have the eyes of eagles. They can see you from like 10km away. Even though I can't see them, or even pick them up on my shkval. I have intelligence set on average, but it doesn't matter. The minute you get within their set attack range, they seem to instantly know where you are, even though they shouldn't be able to see you at that range. And without radar, they shouldn't be able to pick you up on their shkvals at BVR without just an extremely lucky chance. They're driving me crazy. Even when they laze you, they're so far away, you can't pick them up with the shkval because there is so much sky to search. And the laze detector's direction indicator doesn't seem to be all that acurate. It says forward, and later the copter hits me from 2:00.

 

Really sick of this. They should not be able to instantly pick out where we are when we are out of human sight range. The chances of them just picking us up on the shkval at average skill should be EXTREMELY low. Right now, its like they have psychic powers and know exactly where you are when you get within their set attack radius.

 

And another thing to add - How is their shkval and gun system so much more accurate then ours ( I'm talking about the Mi-24V). Even though I'm flying sideways to the heli at around 280 km/hr, as fast as I can get the copter to fly, it looks like he hits me with every round he shot. Yet when I shoot at them and they are going a little over half that speed, at their side, my shkval and gun don't seem to be able to hit them.

 

Getting REALLY FRUSTRATED with this sim.

Edited October 11, 2011 by StarHopper

[StarHopper]

Just did a ruler on F10 screen. My wingman and the AI are "seeing" each other at about 6km, well beyond visible range. You can see a tiny black dot (two pixels ) if you look very close at a little less than 3km. This super human sight needs to be fixed. Its no fun going up against godlike AI and losing every time. I'd hate to set them to excellent. They'd probably visually lock me up at 11 km.

[159th_Viper]

Yeah - we got the idea after the first post. Tone down the rants will you ;)

[EtherealN]

Everything depends on situation. I've had enemy helicopters pass me at less than a KM, completely oblivious to my being there... (And promptly getting fed a couple HE rounds from my Shipunov.) 6km is actually possible though. Not easy, and not everyone can do it, but there's plenty of RL pilots that have spotted enemy aircraft at longer than that. Might need tweaking, but it's not "impossible". I have also engaged Mi-24's in range gun duels and I'm usually the one winning, as long as I don't drag my legs and sit still or move at constant speed. Vary your maneuvers and make sure to change heading and/or speed whenever you see them fire. If it's at range, you have a couple seconds to get out of their field of fire.

 

(The AI code actually considers the pilot fields of view, though there are a few minor issues known.)

 

Regarding the guns - moving fast on the transversal will not be enough to make you hard to hit. Steady speed means they can just establish the range and then know exactly how much to offset their gun. They do not, however, hit with "every round", unless you are very very close to them. The long-barrel and CG-mounted 2A42 is more precise with range, but if they are firing 30mm HE they don't need to hit with every round to make you have a bad day - one or two rounds is enough to really mess things up for you if they strike the right place on the shark.

[PeterP]

each other at about 6km, well beyond visible range. You can see a tiny black dot (two pixels ) if you look very close at a little less than 3km.

 

yes - you have some valid points here-

But you can't judge on pixel size on what range you are able to see a aircraft...and make derivations on your experience when the AI should detect them.

 

Here is a example:

when I'm running DCS in my default FOV (=85) in a resolution of 1280x1024 the plane is 2squearpixel at 2km.

When I run it in 3840x2048 I can still see it fine at 6km...

..see?!

(cant cross-check -I'm not in front of my sim-computer - but this mirrors my experience quite right.)

 

More detailed info about eye-resolution: http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/eye-resolution.html

Edited October 11, 2011 by PeterP

[Nobody96]

Hey StarHopper, have you tried the zoom function? I regularly pick up targets, even helicopters, outside the range of my Vikhrs using the Mark-I eyeball. Since you said that you often end up in the engagement range of radarless targets (<4km AFAIK), you really should work on you situational awareness.

 

On another thought: maybe your monitor is to small. I am using a 22" screen. If that is the case, you should consider using labels, because the AI isn't limited by a small DPI value.

 

so long

Mathias

[StarHopper]

Yeah, the problem is I have a notebook with a 15" wide screen monitor at a resolution of 1366x768. This makes the heli's ( and jets ) invisible at greater than about 2.5 km. Which makes them untouchable while they can hit you at anytime. The sim needs to take in to account the screen resolution ( and maybe even monitor size ) when it determines how far the AI can see. This will let us guys with normal equipment ( non - $600 video cards, etc. ) play this sim as well. Otherwise, we just get slaughtered by an invisible enemy with super human eyes.

[PeterP]

Sorry StarHopper , but I really cant follow your statements.

 

You have three options to get a better situations awareness.

 

1. Set labels to on !

 

-if they are to big for you and kill the immersion . There are moded labels to download that only are represent the other units by a small green dot - just search for these "lable-mods".

 

2.Use the zoom function like nobody96 mentioned!

 

-I don't know what kind of joystick you are using - but maybe you can program a this script on a button to have something like a Binocular on a single press: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1294820#post1294820.

 

3. Get a high-res (at last) 22" monitor that you connect to your laptop !

 

-much cheaper than a 600$ GPU that you aren't able to use on your laptop anyway.

 

 

 

But degrading the abilities of the AI so they match yours (eyesight of 2.5 KM) - because there is a lack of the right search-technics or right hardware is definitive a step in the wrong direction.

Edited October 11, 2011 by PeterP

[Mustur]

Use the zoom function aka binoculars, and turn on labels. On a small screen it's a must, that way you even the odds. You can tweak the labels to your liking in the Labels.lua file.

 

There is some good info on this thread:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2643164/Searchpage/1/Main/278234/Words/lua+replacement/Search/true/More_Realistic_Labels.html#Post2643164

[EtherealN]

This will let us guys with normal equipment ( non - $600 video cards, etc. ) play this sim as well.

 

My screen: ~100 dollars. It's nothing fancy. LED-backlit TN panel, does the job.

My graphics card: ~200 dollars. Maxes out almost anything I throw at it, DCS included, at full-HD resolution.

 

That said, your argument doesn't work. Should the sim also dumb down the enemy if you do not have a headtracker, should it make the plane easier to fly if you don't have a HOTAS, should it ... ... ...

 

And with all those implemented, how do you balance, let alone test, all missions for that?

You see the point. ;)

The problem is not a cheating AI, the problem is that your equipment is putting up unecessary hurdles for you.

 

Further, there's a lot more than just resolution that goes into this - also screen size. GG has an easier time seeing things than I do since he games on a full-HD TV while I'm stuck with this 24 incher. That's just what happens when someone pays a little extra - the equipment works better.

 

But basically, as said: you don't have to break the bank to get good equipment. Hook that laptop of yours up to a good screen and you'll be set. If this is not an option, follow the tweaks indicated by previous posters.

[Migow]

The AI in this game is bad enough when your going against the ground. But the heli's and Jets are the killers. Like the ground vehicles, they have the eyes of eagles. They can see you from like 10km away. Even though I can't see them, or even pick them up on my shkval. I have intelligence set on average, but it doesn't matter. The minute you get within their set attack range, they seem to instantly know where you are, even though they shouldn't be able to see you at that range. And without radar, they shouldn't be able to pick you up on their shkvals at BVR without just an extremely lucky chance. They're driving me crazy. Even when they laze you, they're so far away, you can't pick them up with the shkval because there is so much sky to search. And the laze detector's direction indicator doesn't seem to be all that acurate. It says forward, and later the copter hits me from 2:00.

 

Really sick of this. They should not be able to instantly pick out where we are when we are out of human sight range. The chances of them just picking us up on the shkval at average skill should be EXTREMELY low. Right now, its like they have psychic powers and know exactly where you are when you get within their set attack radius.

 

And another thing to add - How is their shkval and gun system so much more accurate then ours ( I'm talking about the Mi-24V). Even though I'm flying sideways to the heli at around 280 km/hr, as fast as I can get the copter to fly, it looks like he hits me with every round he shot. Yet when I shoot at them and they are going a little over half that speed, at their side, my shkval and gun don't seem to be able to hit them.

 

Getting REALLY FRUSTRATED with this sim.

 

hi

the AI see too far , and too high probability you can fix with this i think "C:\Program Files (x86)\Eagle Dynamics\Ka-50\Scripts\AI\detection.lua"

[Mustur]

If you are going to be modifying detection ranges note that the AI may not be able to find it's target, thus not completing it's task, possibly breaking the mission.

 

So backup first! :)

Edited October 11, 2011 by Mustur
My english is not so good...

[Migow]

If you are going to be modifying detection ranges note that the AI may not be able to find it's target, thus not completing it's task, possibly breaking the mission.

 

So backup first! :)

double-edged

[thinkr]

I often had this problem as well. Getting a second monitor to see the shikval Clearly without having to zoom Helped tremendously. My main monitor 1 on left 1280x1024 Monitor 2 on right 1024x768 shikval. It helps alot same $140 video card. Its just my opinion but here goes. This sim isn't meant to be played on laptops.

[adam12]

Whether the AI's spotting ability needs to be tweaked or not I leave for others to discuss.

 

But I will say that they have a kind of awareness which would be considered psychic if they were real :) It's not realistic, but it might be necessary.

 

Casual observation indicates that the game is programmed to spot targets instantly at a given range, but to consider other variables before engaging. So they are always "ready to get you", but they won't act until conditions are right.

 

The player on the other hand, is not always ready and doesn't simply spot everything within a given range. Labels will give you that ability, but then that's cheating too.

Edited October 19, 2011 by adam12

[Riemann]

Is ai helicopter cheating?

 

Hi to all,

i flew several missions in BS2/BS1 so i'm quite sure now.

Try to test this in a mission:

let the ai enemy helicopter spot you and chase you in a mountainous region. Then make brake left or right turning around hills and trying to conceal yourself against enemy FOV.

Well the AI helo should have 50% chances of choosing the right path to find you but based on my experience it always knows where you are, no matter of how many turns you've made and whatever object you're hiding behind.

It always drives you out!

 

Do you think that's realistic?

[Bucic]

.

.

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The real problem is when there is no willingness to actually pursue solutions :P Also it's not that 90's sim devs will sue ED for using their proven solutions. See below. The whole idea of setting real detection ranges for player vs AI scenarios is simply ridiculous. It seems to me that it's nothing like a rationale but rather a bad dogma.

 

* F4 and BoB2 wov devs knew that and used a technique called smart scaling. Il-2 cod devs used that as well, AFAIK.

 

* a dumb global factor

It is trivially simple to multiply every range related formula with a single or two constants. This way you could e.g. easily globally set all visibility ranges of all units to 75% of the ranges determined by default.

 

* randomization and delay

by the reaction of attacked columns I presume ED still doesn't use these neither.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Bucic

[Riemann]

AI helicopter behaviour

 

Hi,

i think it's not only a matter of range detection; it's like this:

when the ai helos have acquired you as a target it seems they can see you even through buildings and mountains or hills.

[159th_Viper]

Hi,

i think it's not only a matter of range detection; it's like this:

when the ai helos have acquired you as a target it seems they can see you even through buildings and mountains or hills.

 

I'm confused - help me out :)

 

You are in a tortoise (read slow helicopter) and AI-Joe is in a tortoise. AI-Joe spots you and wants to shoot you down.......What makes you think that your tortoise can outrun/hide from Joe's tortoise?

 

I mean, if he has LOS on you, where can you hide? Sure, duck behind a hill/building. Of course he knows you're behind the hill/building......it's not rocket-science. Where else will you be? You're operating a tortoise.

[Riemann]

Hi Viper,

it's not that simple, what do you think?:)

Try to get AI Joe loose the track after you, not in a flat land scenario of course, but in a mountainous region by 'turning around' and try to attack him from directions he wouldn't have never expected (in real life).

Are you able to do that, without running 20km away from him?

 

Once again, it's like he knows exactly where you are each time after being acquired as a target.

 

What do you think?

[159th_Viper]

Once again, it's like he knows exactly where you are each time after being acquired as a target.

 

What do you think?

 

It is that simple :)

 

He spots you. He is after you. Keeping in mind that there are 2 crew in the majority of opponent helos, why would it be unreasonable for him to keep you in sight?

 

You are the one attempting to run away from him. You cannot run fast enough to outrun him - fullstop. You also cannot run fast enough to outfox him - fullstop. You cannot run fast enough to hide from him - fullstop. How? You're too slow. You're driving a tortoise, remember?

 

What now?

 

You stand and fight.

 

Bottom-line: Once he spots you, he will always keep you in sight. Who would not? It's good situational awareness - never take your eyes off the bandit. The moment you turn and run, you've lost, unless you've got eyes in the back of your head, that is. Also, unless you're wanting to tag and drag the bandit into the waiting arms of your wingman/friendly SAM, attempting to run away is suicide.

 

Again - I fail to see how you or anyone can possibly state that, just because the A.I., once he has spotted you, can find you after a poor attempt at hiding, is cheating/superhuman AI skills.....It's just common sense, if anything.

[Bushmanni]

I made a test scenario to test this. I put a Apache above flat ground 8km away from a long big hill and myself on the other side of it. I poppped out from one end of the hill and got the Apaches attention then dived back behind the hill, flew to the other end of the hill and got in hover. All this while staying in perfect cover all of the time. After about a minute the Apache popped up from the other side of the hill coming from his starting points direction and hosed me. I watched the track afterwards from Apaches point of view and he was flying towards me all the time while I was obscured by the hill ie. he never lost track of me after acquiring me for the first time. If this is not cheating then what is?

[159th_Viper]

I made a test scenario to test this. I put a Apache above flat ground 8km away from a long big hill and myself on the other side of it. I poppped out from one end of the hill and got the Apaches attention then dived back behind the hill, flew to the other end of the hill and got in hover. All this while staying in perfect cover all of the time. After about a minute the Apache popped up from the other side of the hill coming from his starting points direction and hosed me. I watched the track afterwards from Apaches point of view and he was flying towards me all the time while I was obscured by the hill ie. he never lost track of me after acquiring me for the first time. If this is not cheating then what is?

 

You are going to have to post a track. From your explanation it seems that there was at least a 50% probability of the Apache finding you immediately as you stated.

 

He knew you are behind the hill. You are either on one side or the other. If I saw you ducking behind the left side of the hill I will also take the right side to go around and attempt to ambush you, knowing that I'll either run head-long into you or pounce on you in a hover, which is incidentally exactly what happened. Or are you saying that he saw you going down the left side, started tracking you towards the left and then altered course to mimic you as you as you flew from the left to the right behind the hill?

 

Again - just because you are behind a hill which he saw you hiding behind in the first instance does not mean that he's cheating.....You allowed him to see you. At the end of the day he is always going to find you - where else are you going to go? You're behind the hill :)

[Yurgon]

I'd like to hop on to this thread. Enemy helos have always been my personal nemesis in Black Shark, so I guess this is as good a time as any to find out why. :-)

 

It is that simple :)

 

He spots you. He is after you. Keeping in mind that there are 2 crew in the majority of opponent helos, why would it be unreasonable for him to keep you in sight?

 

IMO this is a two-layered topic.

1) How good is the AI at spotting and tracking other (player controlled) aircraft?

2) Does it make sense to hide behind hills (regardless of AI issues)?

 

1) How good is the AI at spotting and tracking other (player controlled) aircraft?

 

I also created a simple mission to figure out what would happen if I showed myself to an enemy chopper and then disappeared behind a mountain (BS 1.0.2). In the attached track, the Cobra fails to follow me because he gets stuck behind a hill. However, this makes it very easy to see how his nose follows my every move although LOS is broken by some pretty solid hills and mountains. When I finally reestablish LOS, his nose and gun perfectly point in my direction, he's ready to shoot me down the instant he "officially" sees me.

 

In terms of AI, this seems to be pretty solid proof that (enemy) units have a clear advantage over the player because they keep track even after LOS is broken.

 

In a previous flight in the same mission, I noticed how the Cobra picked me up as soon as I went over the top of the hill - although he was flying away from me at 5+ clicks and I appeared in his 5 o'clock position. The eagle eye AI capabilities (through rear view mirror, if necessary) along with their tracking surely make it much more difficult for players to win such A-A engagements.

 

2) Does it make sense to hide behind hills (regardless of AI issues)?

 

You are the one attempting to run away from him. You cannot run fast enough to outrun him - fullstop. You also cannot run fast enough to outfox him - fullstop. You cannot run fast enough to hide from him - fullstop. How? You're too slow. You're driving a tortoise, remember?

 

Viper, you make it sound like there's no point in running and no point in hiding, because the Ka-50 (as well as all the other choppers) is just way to slow. I tend to disagree. Just take the attached track and go through all the ways this hide and seek might have played out in that particular region.

 

IMHO using terrain cover to disable or break LOS is and has always been THE technique of choice of any helicopter pilot faced with an immediate threat. Unless there's nothing to hide behind or unless other factors dictate an immediate engagement (e.g. supporting friendlies), who wouldn't try to get his ass back to safety to set up a new (hopefully better) attack against an enemy that, at that point in time, has the upper hand?

 

Let's take it a step further. Let's say my Ka-50 gets lased by an Apache, I run and hide behind a hill. The Apache may or may not guess correctly where I went after he lost LOS. If he's right, he might be able to bust my ass. If he's wrong, he might simply run into my trap, getting a handful of additional maintenance apertures installed in a very short time.

 

In terms of "not fast enough", well, the range goes from 0 to ~300kph for most attack choppers, and it only takes a couple of seconds to go from one extreme to the other (actually, how long does it take the Shark from hover to IAS MAX when there's no altitude to exchange for airspeed? I'd say something close to 20 seconds or less near sea level, but let's leave that for another topic). That's a lot of speed to hide quickly as long as there's anything to hide behind - and as long as the opposing helicopters aren't too close to each other to begin with.

 

IMHO the tortoise comparison gives a wrong impression of the agility of attack helicopters. It's a matter of perspective. For an MBT, 300kph is tremendously fast. For an F-16, it's less than optimal airspeed. Running from an MBT is a matter of seconds. Running from a jet seams pointless. Running from another chopper, well, why not? And if the chopper running from the other has a 5kph advantage, he may make it. With a 5kph disadvantage, it's still going to take the hunter a while to get into range, which may take him out of the AO and/or into the range of other enemy units.

 

I'd say running makes a lot of sense and, if the AI didn't have some super power skills, it could even help players lay a trap for the enemy to fall for. Or it could make the enemy break the attack because it's not his job in the first place and he knows he just makes himself vulnerable if he follows a chopper into unknown territory.

 

Besides, we all know a turtle's only weakness is not its lack of speed... http://bash.org/?98450 :-)

yurgon_cobra_vs_hokum.trk

[Riemann]

Hi to all,

what a surprise, good job friends!

It seems like we need to post as many tracks or comments as we can in order to let ED (and its tester team...) to figure this (..possible) issue out.

I like BS2 and its AI but, it might need some further refinments.

 

Thanks to all in advance!