Black Shark 2 Newbie Questions

[mac22]

Just started playing Black Shark 2 and had some questions!

 

1)I am currently playing it with an x52 but decided to get a new joystick that I will be using to play both black shark and other sims such as A10/FSX/IL2 - just wondering which stick plays best with BS2 - I am considering the G940 or Thrustmaster Warthog - I read the G940 with its FFB makes trimming much easier/realistic but needs a lot of configuring although the warthog appears the superior stick (easier to configure but without the FFB)?

 

2)In terms of flying Black Shark 2 I am having some real issues trimming/stablising the helicopter/and trying to get it to go into hover hold - alt+T (I am used to flying fixed wing aircarft) - means when I am trying to fire/aim the missile the heli is drifting slightly(eventhough hover hold and some of the other autopilots are enabled) - can anyone point me to a helpful post/tutorial or give me some tips as its driving me crazy!

 

3)For question 2) I read that enabling something called the flight director might help - have tried to bring it up with Ctrl+A but without success - not sure why? (I was thinking it might only be available only on arcade mode - and I am flying on simulator settings) - although I am not even sure it will help my flying

 

4)Finally also related to question 2) I have noticed in the setting/Misc menu their is a check box for Centre Trim - but not exactly sure what this does (I am already aware that to trim normally u have to hit the trim button - (T) then release the button and within 0.5sec centre the stick (at least with the x52 non FFB stick - not sure if this technique would change or be any easier using a FFB stick such as the G940)

 

Any help will be much appreciated!

[JG14_Smil]

Hi,

 

Use RCTRL ENTER to show the control indicator. You need to have it set to a certain position for hovering and it will depend on the wind. When you get close, repeat the hover command until she settles in for a perfect hover.

 

Personally, I hate the Central Position Trim option and use the original trim instead.

[mac22]

JG14

Thanks for the reply!

1)Actually i tried to bring up the control indicator as well but without success - do i need to assign the key to it or should it work with no set up and does it work in sim mode? / also how does this control indicator differ from the flight director (actually not sure exactly what the flight director is ment to do?)

2)What exactly is the central position trim option ment to do?

3)Do you have any advice on the joystick question - my research is telling me the thrustmaster warthog is overall the superior stick however if I am using it mostly for Black Shark the G940 is the better choice as the FFB option lets you trim/fly much easier in BS2?

[Jona33]

2: Check that the autopilot blue buttons (right side of pit next to ejector seat switches) are all lit after engaging the hover hold. You can also use the Auto Turn to Target button with Hover hold on (left side, black button with green light on it in a block of four, top left one of these) which will point the helicopter towards where the Shkval screen is pointing.

 

3: The flight director is not used in RL except in emergencies although some people do use it. It's another blue button with the autopilot switches and it's the one nearest the right wall. It can help a bit but I don't use it personally.

 

4:Sorry can't remember what that does but I think it means you don't have to re center the controls.

 

As for advice on sticks if you intend to play A-10 then the Warthog is the best out there. TrackIR is highly recommended over a stick when you already have the X52 (which is pretty good), I believe rudder pedals are included with the G940 but I don't know much about it or FFB sticks in general TBh.

[Dustoff74]

4)Finally also related to question 2) I have noticed in the setting/Misc menu their is a check box for Centre Trim - but not exactly sure what this does (I am already aware that to trim normally u have to hit the trim button - (T) then release the button and within 0.5sec centre the stick (at least with the x52 non FFB stick - not sure if this technique would change or be any easier using a FFB stick such as the G940)

 

According to the GUI manual it does the following:

 

"Central Position Trimmer Mode. When selected, enables the alternate method of trim system implementation for non-force-feedback joystick devices. Using this mode, the player's control input is unrecognized after the trimmer button is pressed-released, until the controls are returned to a neutral position. This prevents the player from having to quickly return the controls to neutral after pressing-releasing the trimmer button, as is necessary using the default trimmer implementation."

 

Regarding your joystick question:

I have the G940 and use it with mixed feelings. What I absolutely love is the trim feeling. Like in a real airplane, you can trim "away the forces", which for me, as a RL pilot, just feels natural. And that´s the only advantage I can see for FFB. With BS2 it doesn´t work too well yet, but I´m working on it. When I trim, the trim point seems to be back of my current stick position. E.g. I trim for 10° nose down, than the stick will stay at 5° ND. But I have BS since two days, so I hope I get this working any time soon.

And yes, the G940 comes with pedals.

[con3para]

joystick wise the warthogs , love them , well worth the money , you can pick up a set for £250 , now ,i fly mainly fix wing, just bought another copy of A10. for the girlfriend ,and she uses thrustmaster T...hotas

Edited February 8, 2012 by con3para

[StoOopiD]

im buying the g940. waiting for delivery.

 

if your using a non ffb stick, ur only playing half the game.

[WildBillKelsoe]

1)I am currently playing it with an x52 but decided to get a new joystick that I will be using to play both black shark and other sims such as A10/FSX/IL2 - just wondering which stick plays best with BS2 - I am considering the G940 or Thrustmaster Warthog - I read the G940 with its FFB makes trimming much easier/realistic but needs a lot of configuring although the warthog appears the superior stick (easier to configure but without the FFB)?

 

Check this thread. I'd advise to buy TMWH. I have TMTFHX (tflight hotas X) and the quality is better than X52 in my opinion.

2)In terms of flying Black Shark 2 I am having some real issues trimming/stablising the helicopter/and trying to get it to go into hover hold - alt+T (I am used to flying fixed wing aircarft) - means when I am trying to fire/aim the missile the heli is drifting slightly(eventhough hover hold and some of the other autopilots are enabled) - can anyone point me to a helpful post/tutorial or give me some tips as its driving me crazy!

 

It is difficult at first. Key notes being under 40 KIAS (when the cross starts appearing on HUD). Make sure VVI is horizontal flush (no ascent/descent). Trim the aircraft under 15 KIAS. Last engage is hover hold.

 

3)For question 2) I read that enabling something called the flight director might help - have tried to bring it up with Ctrl+A but without success - not sure why? (I was thinking it might only be available only on arcade mode - and I am flying on simulator settings) - although I am not even sure it will help my flying

 

Stay away from it! Use AP channels only. Also, a forewarning; if you engage hover below 10 m AGL, your channels will flash and you'll lose control momentarily. Try to not execute hover below 10 m.

 

 

4)Finally also related to question 2) I have noticed in the setting/Misc menu their is a check box for Centre Trim - but not exactly sure what this does (I am already aware that to trim normally u have to hit the trim button - (T) then release the button and within 0.5sec centre the stick (at least with the x52 non FFB stick - not sure if this technique would change or be any easier using a FFB stick such as the G940)

 

Any help will be much appreciated!

 

If you played comanche 4 (gold), note how the comanche seems to remain stationary after numerous inputs? that is the center trim. very unrealistic, very retarded IMHO..

[TurboHog]

I dont understand why everyone thinks fd is useless. according to the manual it is most often used when not in auto route or hover mode. Always use it and turn it of when in hover or route mode. when you fly manually always turn it on. It provides dampening and stabilization for all active ap channels (bank pitch hdg and alt) while remaining excellent manouvreability. When you switch to route or hover mode you turn fd off and you turn it on when you want to take over control. when you dont use fd but only the ap channels the heli will go back to its original position it had after releasing the trimmer, making it unflyable by hand. The flight director seems to be one of the most underated, yet one of the most usefull systems. Also do read the manual about the trim and autopilot system. the flight manual is really good.

Edited February 8, 2012 by TurboHog

[EtherealN]

noc_orthodontist, that's not what he is talking about.

 

Centre Position Trimmer Mode removed the ,5 second delay after releasing the trimmer, and instead causes the system to halt all controls until all your inputs are centered. It's useful for people that are not "quick enough" and get a jumpy trimming sequence because of it.

 

Comanche 4 held you stationary after inputs because it was an arcade game with pretty much the same "flight" model as Black Shark gets in "game" mode. This is completely unrelated.

 

Also, the altitude for hover hold disengage is 4 meters, not 10. :)

[159th_Viper]

I dont understand r modewhy everyone thinks fd is useless....

 

Useless is maybe too strong a word.

 

Think of it this way - the Kamov is a single-seat attack helicopter and as such the pilot workload is immense in order to properly and successfully operate in a combat environment: There's a reason why Apaches have two seats.

 

Now with FD off, you need to physically fly the Kamov from point A to point B to point C, whilst with the AP you do not have to, leaving you free to do other stuff that might just mean the difference between you flying home or walking home. What would you choose?

 

That's the difference. In-SIM we are 'immortal'......We rely on the fact that we can hit the 'Fly' button again and again and again with no worries and no attendant fatigue that can kill us dead forever. IRL the Kamov pilots did not have that luxury and accordingly are trained not to rely on the FD. Why give yourself extra workload? Let the AP do the work for you - that's what it is there for, leaving you to concentrate on other things - staying alive, for instance.

[TurboHog]

So when you need to evade lets say an atgm launch you keep fighting against the ap authority or you keep your trimmer button down all the time? And when you do a funnel or side-slip? I feel that The ap is in the way to nicely perform these manouvres and holding the trimmer down is too difficult. So for me, the fd is an outcome. How would you do this evasion or funnel in the heat of the battle, Viper?

[Kraz75]

I agree. I see no reason not to use FD in the sim. It makes things far easier to control manually - like during evasive maneuvers from a SAM or AAA or even lining up for a rocket run. It's also great to have on for landings and I've found it especially useful as a quick way to start a hover then turn it off to stabilize with all AP on, before trimming for a hover hold.

 

If you need to do some heads down work or if you're enroute, sure turn it off and go route mode. I constantly switch it on/off throughout flight depending on circumstances.

[159th_Viper]

So when you need to evade lets say an atgm launch you keep fighting against the ap authority or you keep your trimmer button down all the time?

 

Neither.

 

 

I feel that The ap is in the way to nicely perform these manouvres and holding the trimmer down is too difficult.

 

Perform the manoeuvres - no reason to hold the trimmer button down. The AP does not get in the way.

 

 

How would you do this evasion or funnel in the heat of the battle, Viper?

 

On a Wing and a Prayer :D

 

Jokes aside, watch the attached track recorded with BS2 - just give it two or so minutes for me to start playing about in the buildings. Watch the entire track, keeping in mind that, apart from the initial trim setting when I spawn, that the entire track is flown without hitting the trim button once, nor keeping the trim button down - I fly without trim, AP on, FD off.

 

Obvious hooliganism aside, I'm sure you can appreciate that evasion/funnel etc etc is no issue with AP engaged/FD Off.

 

Track: [ATTACH]59647[/ATTACH]

[TurboHog]

I cant watch the track now but I believe you can fly just as well without fd. You say you dont hit the trimmer...? But the ap is working against you with it's 20% authority to maintain your original heading, pitch and bank angle. You have to keep the stick in such a way that you override the autopilots' wish to go back to the original attitude. Am I right so far? Dont you have to keep the stick in strange positions? I will watch the track tomorrow to see for myself how you do that.

[159th_Viper]

Dont you have to keep the stick in strange positions?.

 

Not that I recall, no. Just another flight, albeit with some extraordinary manoeuvres. Stick position is probably better illustrated with the control indicator when you watch the track (RCtrl-Enter).

 

Like I attempted to say before, FD on vs FD off argument has more relevance to RL doctrine that In-SIM doctrine. IRL that extra coupla seconds toggling between FD on/off, AP etc etc might very well mean the difference between life and death, compounded fatigue etc etc, which is why it is not utilized. FD on increases the Pilot workload IRL - You'd be mad to utilize it as a Pilot who's A$$ is on the line for real. In-SIM that does not matter - we all fly it like we want to: There is no right or wrong.

 

If you however wish to tailor your flight habits to accord as close to RL as possible, the FD off is what you need to do. It's your choice - there is no right or wrong.

Edited February 8, 2012 by 159th_Viper
Linguistic Catastrophe

[BigBANGtheory]

The 74th VFS gave me the best advice to date on this based on 3 simple rules:

 

1. Fly with the control indicator on.

2. Learn what the AP dampening channels etc all do.

3. Experiment with the options, find a system you like then stick to it.

 

For me personally it took about 6hrs of virtual flying to decide how and when to use the different options, which for the most part is 'All Channels ON/FD ON' unless I'm hovering or focusing on some other task.

[Kraz75]

I played your track then went in and flew another crazy flight myself. I do feel I have the same control either way when doing extreme maneuvers. Though the FD is still my prefered choice when I go extreme, as there's just too much "grip" from the AP with it off. Otherwise I bob around all over the place and have to really hold the cyclic in place tight to fight it.

 

Also the trim has a lot less affect over the FD, than without FD. For instance, if you were to trim a tight bank in one direction and try to change direction and without trimming, you'd notice the force being applied by the AP (with FD off). A neutral trim in level flight to start with is much easier to control when banking. I still trim while using FD as there is still some input from the trim, but nowhere near as much.

 

Like you say, in the sim it's a matter of preference where IRL it would be common to use full AP (I suspect).

 

I just see it as another tool to use as needed.

[WildBillKelsoe]

noc_orthodontist, that's not what he is talking about.

 

Centre Position Trimmer Mode removed the ,5 second delay after releasing the trimmer, and instead causes the system to halt all controls until all your inputs are centered. It's useful for people that are not "quick enough" and get a jumpy trimming sequence because of it.

 

Comanche 4 held you stationary after inputs because it was an arcade game with pretty much the same "flight" model as Black Shark gets in "game" mode. This is completely unrelated.

 

Also, the altitude for hover hold disengage is 4 meters, not 10. :)

 

 

I stand corrected... Mmmmmaster..

 

 

 

BUHAAAAAAHAAAAA :megalol: :smartass:

[TurboHog]

So I´ve seen that track and took over control. I change the heading and then let go the stick. Result: helicopter moves back to last heading that was saved after last trimmer release. I think this 'having to remember what the ap authority wants from my heli and compensate all this' increases overal workload. In FD mode this is not the case and thus I think it is more safe to use in evasive actions or dangerous combat situations that require less workload and full authority over the controls while still enjoying AP stabilisation functions (dampening).

 

In the end it is all up to personal preference. In my humble opinion using FD enhances your combat capabilities (unless you are an only-attack-with-vikhrs-from-maximum-range-so-I-never-have-to-evade-anything pussay :smilewink:)

 

So, back on topic and regarding question 3:

 

Please try with and without FD when you have more experience. You can see most of the pro's and cons in the previous posts. Then, decide what suites you best! Good luck! :thumbup:

Edited February 8, 2012 by TurboHog

[winz]

I think this 'having to remember what the ap authority wants from my heli and compensate all this' increases overal workload.

Not really, because trimming is something that you just do all the time when flying...well anything, not only a helo. It becames so automatic, that you no longer think about it.

You also trim mid-turn for the AP to hold your turn-rate/bank angle. I can keep a perfect coordinated turn while looking out for that pesky ZSU that attacked me.

 

IRL the forces involved controling the stick might come into play asweel.

Edited February 9, 2012 by winz

[TurboHog]

Not really, because trimming is something that you just do all the time when flying...well anything, not only a helo. It becames so automatic, that you no longer think about it.

You also trim mid-turn for the AP to hold your turn-rate/bank angle. I can keep a perfect coordinated turn while looking out for that pesky ZSU that attacked me.

 

IRL the forces involved controling the stick might come into play asweel.

 

That was my conclusion on Viper's track in which he doesn't hit the trimmer. Of course you are right. I even use the trimmer in FD mode alot. See track in one of his posts.

[Vitesse2l]

Just to add something to the joystick discussion...

 

I've just replaced my old MSFFB stick with a used MSFFB2 from ebay. This one is USB while the original was gameport (the sound card does not play well with my new mobo and causes input spikes to the gameport joystick).

 

The new joystick is a revelation (had not realised how tired the old one had got) and cost all of £30. I tried to buy carefully and it seems to have paid off. I'm still using XP so not sure if the stick plays well with newer windows.

 

Anyway, all I've had to do is reverse the FF axis (saw an earlier post with someone mentioning the stick moving the wrong way when trimming).

 

So... my point is why not consider trying a used Force Feedback Sidewinder 2. They can be had pretty cheap if you keep an eye out. Because of the way they work there's no dead zone in the centre position and control is very fine. A little short of buttons, so not good for A10 but enough for the shark, I think.

 

Whatever you get, enjoy it!

[HOKUM52]

HI does anyone know if they have fixed the track playback for BS2 yet and does it work with Track IR5.

also i wasnt sure but if i get BS 2 will i still be able to play BS1 like normal. if so track playback prob wont annoy me?

[Jona33]

HI does anyone know if they have fixed the track playback for BS2 yet and does it work with Track IR5.

also i wasnt sure but if i get BS 2 will i still be able to play BS1 like normal. if so track playback prob wont annoy me?

 

Track playback is probably better but can be a bit iffy. Better than BS1. AFAIK trackir 5 works fine. It's a completely separate install to BS1 so it will be fine.