PeterP Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Two MS FFB2 with Cougar Grip: I successfully merged two MS-FFB2 controllers into one to double the force after I have attached Cougar-grip+Extension. Will add pictures and more explanation when I finished the casing-box. In the meantime you can see here how this Idea started and developed: This is what I accomplished so far: I bought these "Gardena" hosepipe connectors that fit into the grip almost perfect (after I drilled/cut one end of them) in to the Grip of the TM-Cougar (thanks to hog_driver111th ! ) - they cost about 3€ each. Than I used a old housing of a Bass-box to a make a prof of concept. So I have pinned down all necessary dimensions... and it's shaping up very nice. The next step is to open up the MS-Sidewinder FFB 2 to make a hole and install a counterweight (...somehow...). - I made a little test run and found out that a counterweight is absolute necessary , because the Cougar grip is much too heave to get hold in position by the FFB motors alone - but it should be no problem with a counterweight. -but right now it feels already very nice... and I'm thinking about to let the grip of the MS-Sidwinder untouched and do something similar like you can see on the pictures (but more sturdy - and not with cable-fixer ) -instead of removing the grip completely. And get a 5pin ps-2 connector to let the base of the cougar communicate with the grip without modifying the cougar at all . I hope also to be able to place the base of the TM-Cougar inside the Bass-box- after I installed the counter-weight like it is seen in urze's video- to get a clean compact look. Will make a new post when I have done some progress... And BTW: Vettel is F1 World Champion 2011 !!!!! Update! Before asking /wondering after you read this post ... ..read this postings in this order: building it with photos/explanations: #19 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1372687#post1372687 some important notes: #8 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1367478#post1367478 #11 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1367489#post1367489 adding hall sensors: # 50 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1428398#post1428398 FFB in the Ka-50 : FFB in the A-10 : ----------------------------------------------------------- Edit: Hi Peter, (...) What will we do if in future ED doesn´t provide this "simultaneous FFB" feature anymore? Is there any other possibility to get both MS-FFB2 produce FFB simultaneously? I think "CyBerkut" also mentioned this somewhere in this forum. Takeoff-for-fun (WB) I hope that it won't happen soon... But if after a update (see my sig ) the FFB won't work any more like I (we) need it for simultaneous use of two MSFFB2 , I will pull out my dusty book about electronic fundamentals , have a long read to refresh my knowledge, and than I will take a deep breath and do this : MS Sidewinder FF2 hacking So I boost the stick's motor current output and can hook up stronger motors and use only one MSFFB2. Here is a alternative approach how you can do it: Here are some pics below. I made a floor plate to hold the various box elements in place, and also to secure the rolling chair. The 2 holes each side of the cyclic box take the castors of the chair. The box on the left is just a support for the TM Warthog throttle, and I plan to make it pivot to open like a door. All boxes etc made from 9mm MDF board. The cyclic stick is hand bent aluminium tubing, 16mm ext dia. The counter weight on the lower FFB is a brass plumbing fitting filled with melted lead solder. Needs to be heavier though, so will add to the outside. I used 2 MS FFB2b and a CH Fighterstick sticks from eBay. I followed Peter P's instructions carefully, and once I got the hang of it I started to improvise a bit. I used the screw hole tubes from the inside of the FFB housing to fix the PCBs to the cut out parts of the FFB base plate. Base plates hotglued into position inside the box. Please ask if you want to know more. Just going for a quick flight before my wife gets home! Attached Thumbnails Edited July 11, 2013 by PeterP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadroc Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Awsome work, I'm well jealous:thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Succellus Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 wow Nice rat joystick... Now you must have the power!! FFB really lack in black shark with conventional joys. HaF 922, Asus rampage extreme 3 gene, I7 950 with Noctua D14, MSI gtx 460 hawk, G skill 1600 8gb, 1.5 giga samsung HD. Track IR 5, Hall sensed Cougar, Hall sensed TM RCS TM Warthog(2283), TM MFD, Saitek pro combat rudder, Cougar MFD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froglips Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Peter, Can you take some photos of how you merged two controllers for double the motor power? My cyclic is disassembled to build a new KA-50 grip so why not do this mod too? Froggie Kurt "Froglips" Giesselman wishing someone would do a two seat sim like LB2...I ain't much of a pilot but I am a helava good shot. System specs: Asus Sabertooth 990FX, AMD FX 4170, 16GB DDR3 RAM, 2 x Palit 560Ti 2GB video cards SLI, TIR 4, 26" main display, 21.5" Helios display, 10" Shkval display, 9" ABRIS display, XKeys Pro panel, Copy Cat Controls cyclic/collective w/custom KA-50 head/rudder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Thanks Gadroc, Scarecrow and Succelus ! - I'm also very happy and proud of it! Hi Froglips, Yes - I will make some pictures how everything fit together(again*). Most pictures I took from the mechanic are very blurred - but you are lucky that I finished the casing box/switch-panel yesterday and I have to disassemble everything again tomorrow to do the soldering of the wires of the switch-panel - that will be connected to the MS-FFB2 circuit boards buttons/unused axis. And after that I have to fit the controller-boards of the two MS-FFB2's and the one of the TM-Cougar in side the casing. *And while I'm on it I will take some sharp pictures how the mechanic works and is connected again. This is how it looks right now: and one of the sharp pictures how the both FFB machanics are connected together : Edit: And a vid: Things that still have to be placed inside the casing an soldered (it will be tricky - but there should be enough room for it): ...and also a power supply connector, a "master" power switch, two power indicator diodes (one for each MSFFB2)...and a lot of wires! :) Things I have in mind to add: A ejection seat handle - right in-front of the stick extension -and connected to one of the still unused buttons... More pictures and explanations will follow when I have finished everything and I will find the time to write it down. Update: More pictures and explanations in post #19 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1372687#post1372687 Edited January 13, 2012 by PeterP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krebs20 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I am very interested in this project. How much trial and error did you do to get the 2 FFB to work in sync? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) That is what also puzzled me at the start... but it is very simple: I needed no try and error at all! :) When DCS sends a FFB command it will executed by every FFB controller you add. I found it out by moving my MS-FFB2 and saw that the Logitech FBB-steering wheel turned also in the x-axis the same as the joystick... So I bought the second MS-FFB2 (at a price I don't dare to tell... the seller didn't know what he was offering...;) - I gave him 10€ extra in the end...) and it works right out of the box without to tweak something. (OK - I had to reconnect the wires of the axis of the second MS-FFB2 - but this only after I turned it upside-down and mirrored the axis.) - and when they slightly work different - it's very easy to fix it by calibrating them one after another in the control-panel of windows. When you plug in two MS-FFB2 - they will react in sync to a FFB command from DCS. Nice -isn't it ?! Edited February 21, 2012 by PeterP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elchacal Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Awesome! 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krebs20 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 very nice. Any thoughts on trying to use 1 FFB to control the 2 motors in sync? I was thinking of buying a FFB just for playing blackshark. But now maybe a new project is in order. edit. What I'm asking is can I buy an older gameport FFB and try to wire the usb one to send commands to both sets of motor. The gameport ones I can get for dirt cheap. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Any thoughts on trying to use 1 FFB to control the 4 motors* in sync?*I corrected this for you - original: "2 motors". I Wouldn't mess with it - as you would need new resistors at the H-bridge (that controls the input to the brush-less motors)-the possibility to fry your MS-FFB2 is very high. And this would probable be involve more "try-and-error"+Time+ money than simply buying a second MS-FFB2. :P And BTW: Using a FFB in DCS A-10c and FC is also very nice (and I don't want to miss this) . when you at ground - the stick is loose when you are flying fast - the stick is stiff when you stall - the stick gets loose and starts to shake. when you trim - the stick moves the "center" position according your trim input. edit: edit. What I'm asking is can I buy an older gameport FFB and try to wire the usb one to send commands to both sets of motor. The gameport ones I can get for dirt cheap. See my answer above - don't know how much stress the MS-FBB2 can take... - wouldn't mess with it- why reinventing the wheel ?! - the additional circuit boards of the second MS-FFB2 don't take much place - and the mechanic are the same and work together as I show in my vid. Edited January 6, 2012 by PeterP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krebs20 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Aright. SHHHHHH Im trying to win on ebay. I dont need others looking too. Some more step by step pictures would be nice. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrasyuk Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 makes me regret that i sold the spare one i had... 1 Anton. My pit build thread . Simple and cheap UFC project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Some more step by step pictures would be nice. Be aware that this is a project I self would call "advanced" (keep in mind that I'm not linked to any handicraft work in RL -I work in a insurgence company and didn't worked something like this out myself for over 10 years - so It could look like "easy to bake a cake" to others ~ I don't know...) - you have to work very exact to get the gear moving without destroying themselves over the time... so you are be warned.:) This is a project that isn't finished in one day - or even a week - to many details...that I can't cover - but I will try to answer - and also post enough pictures to follow all necessary steps. ... - that's what made me think I could try something like I show in this thread:A picture Tale: "Dual Thrust" or "What I did in my Easter Holiday" And I'm very proud to say that without ED making this wonderful simulations I would never tried something like this - and also (probably) would never discover this skills I have and developed them- simply because I wouldn't see the need to do it. - but, looking back, this made my live much more worth living! ;) makes me regret that i sold the spare one i had... hmm.... you are a Idiot!! :D - but you made someone else happy ( and BTW you earned some money...)-That is fair! :D Edited January 6, 2012 by PeterP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krebs20 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Im an aircraft mechanic. Not saying that I wont have troubles. Just saying I have some background to help. And a full shop of tools. Its a very impressive project and I want to try. Im not done building my collective yet. That has been in the works for over 2 months. But when its done, I'll need something to do. 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froglips Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Peter, Thanks for the picks and the video. The video really helped a lot. I didn't understand that it was a full disassembly of both sticks. This will require more design work than I had planned for it to fit into my set-up but it certainly seems worth it when I watch your original trim video. It seems like I spend much more time building my pit then I do flying. That was the case with my F-16 pit too. By the time I finally got my pit working for Allied Force everyone had moved onto other flight sims. I simply have to get rid of this full time day job. It is really interferring with my simming! Kurt "Froglips" Giesselman wishing someone would do a two seat sim like LB2...I ain't much of a pilot but I am a helava good shot. System specs: Asus Sabertooth 990FX, AMD FX 4170, 16GB DDR3 RAM, 2 x Palit 560Ti 2GB video cards SLI, TIR 4, 26" main display, 21.5" Helios display, 10" Shkval display, 9" ABRIS display, XKeys Pro panel, Copy Cat Controls cyclic/collective w/custom KA-50 head/rudder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 PeterP... you've got some really great ideas... and they work well :) No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avlolga Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Peter, Great work !!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Hi! ( avlolga and kuky, thanks for your comment!) - the modification is finished and in use since two days and I'm very happy with it. BTW: if you are wondering what it this thing I tilt 90° and use as a collective: A picture Tale: "Dual Thrust" or "What I did in my Easter Holiday" Here a some photos of the most important steps with explanation so you get a Idea what I have done. They are not meant to use as a manual and there is no chronological order (!) - it's just how I did it... ;) There are also some steps missing (I just didn't took pictures) Using the methods / circuits / components / constructions as described in this document is entirely at your own risk. If you damage your PC / Joystick / Keyboard / Yourself by any of the things I wrote down in this document, it’s NOT MY FAULT. Snapper reported some problems in IL2 - The both FFB don't work in sync using my method. He will try a different approach using only one FFB circuit board to drive all four motors: Read more about it here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3507325.html#Post3507325 Edit: Btw: I was asked now two times via PM if I know if there is a problem with using a "Red" one and a "Grey" MSFFB2 - to be honest I never worried about this and I used myself a mix of this two different models. The "Master" (up) is a "Red" and the upside-down is a "Grey" in my build! So If you want to build something like this yourself: ask me - and I will try hard to answer! :) I use a old bass-box of a old 2.1 sound system as casing for the stick. The dismantled FFB mechanism of both MS-FFB2's A look inside the casing (bass-) box: The overall dimensions: Here you can see how I attached the switch-panel (I used a unused part of the saitek throttle quadrant - that I use as a dual-trust controller) : Here is the stick in front of my (also) modified office-chair: The switch-panel that is driven by the buttons of the two MS-FFB2's Soldering... ...even more soldering... (I hate this kind of work! :D - but it is very important to do it clean with concentration! ) Both FFB mechanism joint together : Link to the Motor-Mountings: http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/207245/ALU-MOTORTRAeGER-FUeR-BRUSHLESS-MOTOREN They just fit perfect and assure that the gears are already in the right distance! View it from each side: The baseplates came in handy... : How I solved the "no more room for tools left inside the box" problem: Edited February 4, 2012 by PeterP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Here you can see what holds every thing in "balance" and helps the motors to hold the heavy stick in place : Here is a tip how to calculate the needed counterweight: That is tight....and chaotic! :D (don't worry... - I haver already taped everything together and the gears are not distributed by the wires - but don't have a picture.) almost forgot .... But It just fitted !!! ( the controller board of the TM-Cougar is behind the wooden plate in the middle) All held reliable together by Velcro! From the board goes a 5-pin cable through the FFB mechanics, to the s-shaped tube, into the metal joint of the TM-Cougar that connects to the cougar grip. Scrapyard ...!: Very Important thing: Very important but isn't shown: To make both MS-FFB work together in sync you have to mirror the X and Y axis of the second (the lower one) FFB-Mechanism. That means you will have to swap the cables for both potentiometers and also swap the cables for both motors. (what is connected to + has to be connected to the - ). Potis for X/Y axis : swap the brown and the orange wire(leave the red one as it is) and also connect x to y and vice versa. - do the same with the wires for the motors. And I also extended every wire so I could connect everything back together in the end. I also used hot-glue/lock-tight on every screw/nut - so It can't get loose when the motors vibrate. The controller- boards are simply hold by hook and loop fastener sticky-pads - so It is easy to maintain (If needed) and so it was easy to put them inside the box. As you can see - there is no more room left (not even a screwdriver ) - so Velcro was the best and only solution. In DCS I only have asigned the x/y axis of the upper MS-FFB2. Edit: Before this question(s) arise again I will post a PM conversation: I have been outbid on the last 5 MICROSOFT SIDEWINDER FORCE FEEDBACK 2 off eBay. Sorry caps it was a copy paste. I'm getting frustrated. If I'm going to go try FFB I want something that really kicks. What I want to know is how much pressure does your mod give you on the stick? I was thinking of buying a logictech g940 and was wondering how you would compare it. Also, how good are the pots on your Microsoft stick? Any spiking? Thanks in advanced It has more than enough punch now and I'm very satisfied- just watch the last seconds how the stick "kicks"back to the center again after I exit the FFB-test program :http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GwvbxT0JNmc#t=80s and keep in mind that the handle weights about 0,7kg (1.5 lbs) and there is also a counterweight of 1,5 kg (3.3 lbs) inside the box. I can't really talk/comment about the g940 and compare (I had it only 4 days and I was very disappointed of the overall performance - this was 1,5 years ago). The force was a little weaker to a MS-FFB2 if I recall correctly. The potis of the MS-FFB2 are really OK - and I don't want to change them - I'm able to fly very stable/precise I and have also no problems doing AA-refuelings in the A-10c. Watch this track if you need a proof : http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1358180#post1358180 This was recorded witch a single MS-FFB2 but there is no lack in Precision with my mod. - It is even better now because I have the stick now extended. And with this longer throw I'm able to make much finer adjustments. Edited January 29, 2012 by PeterP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cichlidfan Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 You, my friend, are in the wrong line of work!!:D Outstanding:thumbup::thumbup: ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MA_Goblin Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Simply a great mod and very nice job You've done here! :thumbup: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] _____________Semper paratus, In hoc signo vinces________________ PC: Intel i7-8700K (4.9 GHz), Aorus Ultra Gaming Z370 MB, Gigabyte RTX 3080, 32 GB DDR3 (3,2 GHz), Samsung EVO 860 M.2 500 GB SSD + Samsung 960 M.2 250 GB SSD Gaming: Virpil T-50 CM2, TM WH Throttle, Crosswind pedals, HP Reverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazysundog Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Peter, Thanks for the inspiration! I was going to do something a little different to increase the force in my MSFFB2, but I am going to use your method now. Be ready for many questions! Two questions now: Is the counterweight absolutely necessary, or can you do without it? Is the force enough to keep your Cougar handle solid when trimming in BS2? (its hard to see in the video) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) Is the counterweight absolutely necessary, or can you do without it? No, it works also without - and is strong enough to "lift" the Grip by itself from a full deflected position. (something that wasn't easily possible with only one MSFBB2 ) But the counterweight takes away a lot of stress from the motors and also increases the overall FFB. - even if this may sound strange in the first place , but that's exactly what it does : It' balances the the whole mechanics , so that the motors have to do the same work , regardless in which position the stick is. A nice side-effect is that I can use this stick very nice in FSX to fly helicopters and also "hands-free" - I just switch off the ffb. - because than I can place the stick in any position I want, and it will stay there. -something that is only possible with the counterweight. (FSX has a very unrealistic FFB simulation for Helicopters - far away what you have in BS ) I'm very sure you wouldn't need it when you would use a grip of a X52 or CH-Fighterstick. Keep in mind the the cougar grip is full-metal and quite heavy. Is the force enough to keep your Cougar handle solid when trimming in BS2? (its hard to see in the video) Yes. Please watch the vid again and keep special attention when I switch off the FFB test program and the stick swings back to the center position. It can be very violent :) Edited January 28, 2012 by PeterP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avlolga Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Wow ... now this is amazing work and very nice manual you gave as. reading it make me think mmmm i like one too, you got your self a fan :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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