Trees and scenery

[Antorian]

As has already been discussed in on this forum in exhausting detail, trees and shrubbery are currently not collidable geometry. Since DCS is primarily a flight simulation this hasn't been the most pressing of issues since most of the time a player spends in the game is up in the air. However, with the announcement of DCS: Combined Arms I thought about the problem again.

This addition promises to add drivable vehicles to the game and I can't help but wonder what if anything should be done about trees and scenery. How does lack of collidable trees and shrubbery detract from a ground based player perspective? Also, could this be a game breaking issue? Think of a heavy impassable forest modeled on the landscape. Currently, it would be possible to move right through it versus forcing navigation around. Not to mention the ability to shoot clear through many trees unhindered. I'm curious how these issues will be addressed in this upcoming addition to one of my favorite simulations.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Antorian

[Haukka81]

I like to know too , i hope that we finally get new trees before 2013 :P

[EtherealN]

Unfortunately this is an underlying engine problem as far as the present terrain engine goes. Forests are unified objects. Making trees collidable would cause several undesirable effects:

 

1) Roads passing through forests would be impassable for all units.

2) Units placed in forests would be caused to "hover" over the forest.

3) Individual tree weapon and sensor line of sight would not be possible.

 

Note that this is for the old engine. Nevada and other maps made with EDGE should be good in this respect.

Edited June 5, 2012 by EtherealN

[Antorian]

Thanks EtherealN. Good to know that its not a forgotten issue.

[Nate--IRL--]

Thanks EtherealN. Good to know that its not a forgotten issue.

 

I don't ED have ever been allowed to forget :)

 

Nate

[PrintF]

Hello everyone,

 

first post :)

 

Maybe you guys can use an algorithm that senses a certain mass of trees on the surface and creates a bounding box or bounding area around the mass of trees or a forest. I suspect, you are creating forests from serveral triangles and place tree objects scattered inside the triangle area on the ground geometry.

Wouldn't it be possible to create a collision object using the triangles? The collision area would be smaller so that units would not bounce off directly at the boundary of the forest but a bit inside.

For the AI you could use these areas so that they would avoid them.

 

Also it would be possible to say that at least the AI would move at 1/3 th speed they do on open ground. If you are steering a vehicle as a player, you would experience the same speed change and possible avoid these areas as the pose a thread to your tactical movement.

 

Also, creating tree objects with collision for the player actually could be possible and not as difficuilt as creating collidable trees for any entity in the game.

The collidable tree objects would be created in a certain circle around the player object. AI, that acts as a unit connected to the player unit, would try to follow in formation but only travel at 1/3 the speed thay would on open ground. If the player does small fast movements to not to collide with tree objects the AI would follow that movement smoothed by filters.

 

What do you think?

[Stuka]

Actually, al I read here:

 

Nevada and other maps made with EDGE

 

:D:D

[CHSubZero]

Actually, al I read here:

:D:D

 

 

*cough* *cough* Myanmar *cough* *cough*

[joey45]

While talking about this with a fellow sqd mate.

 

How about having the collision bounding box thingy round the player instead of the 10000s of trees.... or something along those lines...?

[maturin]

It should not be hard to make a 'plane collision' box so that flying into a forest will blow you up, not not impede bullets or tanks.

 

Any engine that can't handle collision for certain units types only is sort of a joke.

[PrintF]

@Stuka: Now I understand heh :) I read one of the threads about EDGE and yes - lets hope they are implementing that in the new engine. Would make sense! :) Do we have any insight into dates or when it should/could be available??

[AnkH_82]

I pick this one up as I am going to give my DCS:BS and DCS:World another chance. BUT: if I read correctly, there is still nothing done about the trees? For me, the more important question is: can the AI still "look" through forests as in DCS:BS 1.0? If yes, I will instantly cancel my plan of trying BS again, because that is still the biggest immersion killer ever and an absolute no go for a chopper sim. I understand, that making trees "solid" does not work with this engine, but "seeing" through is actually worse. Several times I got shot down by a unit hidden behind trees and while I was not ABLE to see it, it was and shot at me. Bummer. For a regular plane such as the A-10 or the Su-25t, I will give a try, probably it is not so obvious there. I just wonder, why the Series is further and further developed, new modules appear, updates are done, people buying it and still, this major drawback persists. Remains a mystery to me...

[Demongornot]

The funny part was :

Every other aircraft/war simulator/game i know have collidable trees and don't have any problems...

 

Just wait Edge with Nevada and hope, its the only thing to do, and hope it will release before the end of the world :D

[Bodo]

I agree with what AnKH_82 said. Such an unfortunate element of the simulation. It would make a huge difference.

[AnkH_82]

As I said, the most important thing would be, that the AI can not "see" through the trees, I actually do not even bother, whether the trees are collidable or not, but "seeing" through and firing on me without giving me a chance to see them is a no-go and actually ridiculous...

[Demongornot]

I agree, and the problem its bigger with the KA-50, this helicopter is design to use the landscape and a lot of time he will use trees for hide and protect himself from rocket/missiles.

[AnkH_82]

Well, actually the developers always point out that the KA-50 was not especially designed like that and that you can still use landscape and buildings to hide. Right. But the thing is, that the AI is able to detect you while you are NOT. That is the point. It is not even only about hiding, I could live with the fact, that a AA gun can fire THROUGH a forest and hit me. BUT, I can definately not live with the fact, that I have a disadvantage just because there is no option for me to see an AI AA in a forest exept in turning off trees. Well, maybe I have to wait another year for this new "engine", obviously the main part of the BS community can deal with this fact...

[Rogue Trooper]

I am only really interested in choppers and hopefully there are alot more choppers to come from Eagle Dynamics.

However, non solid trees and the ability of the enemy AI to see and shoot through the trees is a serious let down in the DCS world. My guess is it also gives jet jockeys an unfair advantage in multiplayer when using radar to detect helicopters.

[Devrim]

Last month, I've introduced DCS World to a friend of mine. He likes & plays Apache Air Assault. Me too, but I haven't played it after met with DCS.

 

Anyway; After playing (showing/demonstrating) BlackShark for a while, he asked that if Ka-50 can collision with trees. I said no. And he said "So, how can you say that 'this is a simulation'?" :P

[Mohamengina]

Wait for EDGE

 

/thread.

[Kameni]

Come to trees, it would be nice if you remove that anoying tree that is few meters from the runway end in Novorosiysk (the runway end toward the hills). Honestly, do you believe that airport management would leave a tree to grow - and become a danger? :D

 

I don't :D

According to FAA:

 

"Wildlife

Each certificate holder must take immediate action to alleviate wildlife hazards whenever they are

detected.

A Wildlife Hazard Assessment must be conducted by a qualified Wildlife Damage Management

Biologist if:

An air carrier aircraft experiences:

:doh: Multiple wildlife strikes

*Substantial damage from striking wildlife

* Engine ingestion of wildlife

* Wildlife in size, or in numbers, capable of causing one of the above, is observed to have

access to airport flight patterns or movement areas.

An assessment will identify if a Wildlife Hazard Management Plan is needed.

Wildlife Hazard Management Plan:

* Must meet all requirements of 14 CFR part 139

* Must be approved by the FAA and become a part of your Airport Certification Manual.

* Must be reviewed and valuated every 12 consecutive calendar months or following a trigger

event (above).

* A training program conducted by a qualified wildlife damage management biologist must be provided to all personnel responsible for implementing the plan."

 

It's not really a serious issue, but it anoys me for years :D

[Rogue Trooper]

I hate the see through fly through trees.

I have played every chopper game since the 1980s and DCS BS is the Mutts "twitchings" as far as I am concerned.... but the trees! The trees!

Fundamental chopper stuff!

I truly do hope edge is not just in the Nevada release. Last time I was there in the real Nevada..... I saw very little trees.