Trouble Landing

[Ramstein]

I don't do so bad on taking off with light or heavy loads, it's the landing I need help... I find the stall speed a bit to high... I really try to get it down to about 120 mph, hell even 130 mph, but it seems it starts losing balance and dropping at 140 mph.. I have tried various combinations of flaps, wheels and flaps, etc..etc.. balance on the front wheels first, then dropping the rear wheel.. but, I just am having problems with the landing speed...

 

Anyone know of a place with good tips and videos on landing the P-51D ?

 

I have been flying flight sims for 15 years... and have experience on aicraft carriers too but, I am having problems with this one...

thanx..

:joystick:

[159th_Viper]

Full Flaps and she should stall in a three-point attitude at about 90mph so there is definitely something wonky if you are falling at 140mph.

 

Post a track and we can see what's the bother.

[Ramstein]

hopefully by tomorrow I will post a P-51D landing trak...

tired now and will be busy tomorrow... but will try a.s.ap.... I want to give it a good effort..

:joystick:

[Wolf Rider]

Set up a mission with an AI plane, with the same loadout, so that you can study how the AI goes about landing.

[WildBillKelsoe]

manual p.133/183 should answer your question.

[Ramstein]

I had a terrible landing, but it was the best I could do today... I am embarrased to show it, I have hoenestly had much better ones in the past days, but I am for some reason getting worse,, here is one...

 

:cry:

 

I gave up on trim, and as I said if I tried to glide in and flair below 140 mph, it just goes bad...

[Wolf Rider]

Hi

I got your TRK and took "Control" of the playback at the point where you begin to change the gunsight ring.

 

(even though I came in a bit early and out of flare :joystick: )

 

notice the throttle/ RPM and stick adjustments... which begs to ask; what is your stick curves assigned as?

CONTROLLED 06-06-12_Ramstein_Best_Landing_Today.trk

[SimFreak]

I've posted this track of me doing touch-n-goes few weeks ago. Hopefully it's useful in seeing what others are doing. Watching AI is not same thing since it's ....AI.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=66425&d=1337802778

[Wolf Rider]

 

~ Watching AI is not same thing since it's ....AI.

 

 

 

:smartass:

AI maybe AI, but it does give someone using it as a guide a good indication of what should be what.

[Cedaway]

Since the first landing, I've never achieved to do a correct one. I always 'bounce' on the runway 2 or 3 times before actually landing. Next time, I'll try to do it 'VVI style' instead of speed.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Since the first landing, I've never achieved to do a correct one. I always 'bounce' on the runway 2 or 3 times before actually landing. Next time, I'll try to do it 'VVI style' instead of speed.

 

if you bounce, you're not doing it right.. maybe pull the stick back on touchdown and let the tail wheel take the force?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Since the first landing, I've never achieved to do a correct one. I always 'bounce' on the runway 2 or 3 times before actually landing. Next time, I'll try to do it 'VVI style' instead of speed.

 

Landing a tail wheel plane is much less forgiving than a nose wheel plane.

 

When you touch down the momentum of the aircraft will act through the centre of gravity. In a nose wheel plane the centre of gravity is in front of the main wheels; so when you touch down this causes the nose to pitch down, reducing the angle of attack of the wings, removing any remaining lift.

 

In a tail wheel plane, the opposite happens; the centre of gravity is behind the wheels. On touch down the nose pitches up, angle of attack increases and so does lift. This increase in lift gets you flying again and is what causes the bounces.

 

To avoid the bounces, you need to flare and hold the aircraft off the runway untill it won't fly anymore and settles onto the runway.

 

I recommend searching for tail wheel flying techniques, there are some good resources out there and should help:pilotfly:

[Spy Guy]

:smartass:

AI maybe AI, but it does give someone using it as a guide a good indication of what should be what.

 

The AI uses a simpler flight model, which makes AI landings different from player landings. There was a thread about the A-10C where this came up and it led people to use the wrong procedure (as the AI has a shorter roll distance after landing, for instance).

 

I can't say how it'll be in the Mustang's case, but the AI can trick you. :P

 

I'd personally recommend the training mission on landings in the Mustang, I find the gates help with procedure, distances and similar things. :smartass:

[159th_Viper]

I had a terrible landing, but it was the best I could do today... I am embarrased to show it, I have hoenestly had much better ones in the past days, but I am for some reason getting worse,, here is one...

 

:cry:

 

I gave up on trim, and as I said if I tried to glide in and flair below 140 mph, it just goes bad...

 

Cannot watch the track on my install due to it being a later version. I did however catch the beginning - I think - and if it played back correctly, then you should watch the control inputs: Do everything slowly and wait for effect to settle. Ideally you would want to leave your prop Control lever alone after setting the RPM to about 27 for landing. Thereafter just use your throttle to control your speed of descent.

 

OK - Let's look at the landing: As seen in the attached vid, I took control of your track (so we know the aircraft configuration is the same), banked steep right to bleed off speed and deployed full flaps and gear. At this stage whilst lining up to the runway, adjust your throttle to maintain a speed of approximately 150mph.

 

Whilst descending, use your K-14 sight to keep yourself aligned and control your descent - see how I line the runway up with the 60 degree tab?

 

On the descent, adjust your throttle incrementally to maintain a speed of approx 130mph. All the while you are adjusting downwards in very small doses so that, when flying over the threshold, your speed is approximately 120-110mph.

 

OK - Here comes the fun part: When you are over the threshold (judge as you cannot really see. I use the trucks as indicator), gently pull back on the stick to put her in a three-point attitude (use the mental picture you have prior to take-off) and keep her there. The hard part here just to let events run their course and not to do anything as your instincts tell you to do something to make her land - don't. If you have put the Mustang in the three-point attitude, she'll bleed airspeed and settle all by herself at about 90mph.

 

Once settled, it's up to you to keep her straight - be sure to lock the tailwheel once you're down. Throttle back and taxi to park.

 

Herewith enclosed a youtube vid showing the cockpit view as I land, together with the Control Indicator. Thought it better to post a vid as opposed to a track due to playback issues between versions. Should be recorded in HD so be sure to watch full screen to get a good look at the instruments through the entire landing process and attempt to replicate - It is difficult at first but with practice you'll be just fine :)

 

t9yTD5wJy2g

[Markindel]

simple landing

 

Hello Ramtein.

In the landing with the P51D is important to lower gently the tail to try to touch the ground with all three of the wheels.

I attach a fast file .trk.

It is not my best landing, but it's pretty clear the concept of "lower tail".

It 'true that the DCS P51D below 150 Kias starts to become difficult to control but this is also true in reality.

Hope that helps.

If you feel appropriate workaround see also this video:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89580

Appontaggio2.trk

[Ali Fish]

trying to adjust the plane below 150 kias is a no go IMO. fall or fly is the decision at that stage.

 

honestly i know it sounds a bit wacky but try landings in the thick of night. it forces you to not compensate for anything you see outside the cockpit and this is the key. mostly everything outside the cockpit is a distraction. obviously we need our touch down point, but thats all. let the bird fall out the sky in a coordinated fashion as hands free as possible. glide it in is my style presently it seems, but its still not correct by any measures

 

whose going to teach us lot around here 2 point landings in a p51 ? are they even possible ?

Edited June 7, 2012 by Ali Fish

[VH-Rock]

2 point landings are indeed possible, just not recommended. 3 point landings will put the aircraft on the ground at the slowest possible speed, very gently and you should, if you're prepared, have immediate directional control. A two point landing will leave the rudder with greater effectiveness and small movements could cause you to loose directional control. It really has to be minute movements with the rudder if you are trying to 2 point land this aircraft. With that being said, If I was still full of fuel and ammo, I would rather two point than 3 point a heavy Stang.

 

It's all about be smooth. Minimal control input on the approach.

 

My method is to fly a curved final approach so I can see the threshold pretty much up to the point of touch down. I roll wings level, Idle the power and begin a gentle flare at about 20 feet, directly above the threshold. Then you just manage the descent very carefully. Any fast movements will put you in the ground, but she's a real babe if you treat her right.

[159th_Viper]

2 point landings in a p51 ? are they even possible ?

 

Ygx8r4ULRBA&hd=1

[Wolf Rider]

 

The AI uses a simpler flight model, which makes AI landings different from player landings. There was a thread about the A-10C where this came up and it led people to use the wrong procedure (as the AI has a shorter roll distance after landing, for instance).

 

 

It may use a simpler FM and we're talking landing, not after landing or screaming through the skies with our hair on fire.... I've found using the AI as a guide (note that this is the important part... a guide - not as gospel) to be very helpful.

Especially when using outside view to see the attitude and then into the cockpit to study the gauges and what they are indicating.

 

Have you noticed the line across the fixed part of the P-51 artificial horizon ? its good for determining the flare prior to touch down

[JimMack]

OK - Here comes the fun part: When you are over the threshold (judge as you cannot really see. I use the trucks as indicator), gently pull back on the stick to put her in a three-point attitude (use the mental picture you have prior to take-off) and keep her there.

 

To judge when you are in a 3 pointer attitude, look at the horn just to the left of the cockpit view.

The technique I use is to look when the horizon is at the halfway point on the horn, then I feel that I am at the correct attitude for touch down (it of course depends on how you have adjusted your height in the cockpit etc).

[Ali Fish]

very elegantly done viper ! these massive runways are of use to the p51 ! guess thats my next challenge 2 pointers. cockpit procedures vid please !

 

<hopes to see a short grass field mod for DCS ASAP !>

[159th_Viper]

....cockpit procedures vid please !

 

Herewith a post of mine of a while back containing the track I used for that vid. See if the track plays back correctly for you. If not, I'll convert to Youtube.

 

Try it with a 20% fuel load and keep an eye on your descent rate. Any more than the following pic and she will bounce:

 

 

You also want to keep an eye on your speed and touch down a wee bitty faster, ie at 110mph or so, otherwise it'll just transition to a three-pointer. Coming down, just keep her in a nose-down attitude and fly her into the runway. Once down, stick forward a wee bit to keep the tail up. Keep on the power until you are ready to drop the tail.

 

Herewith a quick clip and track so you can see from In-Cockpit what is going on and attempt to replicate. It is easy once you know to watch the descent-rate and the out-of-cockpit view when you are about to touch down. After a while you can judge how far from the ground you are by looking left or right out of the cockpit.

 

Track: [ATTACH]66392[/ATTACH]

[Ali Fish]

track works well ! cheers for that.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Herewith a post of mine of a while back containing the track I used for that vid. See if the track plays back correctly for you. If not, I'll convert to Youtube.

 

Using the VSI could be useful for practice, but not very realistic ;)

[Tailspin45]

Flying maxims:

 

Throttle controls rate of descent, pitch controls airspeed.

 

Trim, trim, trim!

 

A good approach will produce a good landing.