Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[super2277]

Do anybody know what the Nvidia pascal price tag? or guess it? and know when its going to get releases?

 

And if you pre-order the oculus now will them take your money right away? or when it is getting shipped?

[TomOnSteam]

im trying to find out if anyone that use oculus, DK1 or DK2, if DCS has positional / spatial audio, and if you can hear / feel it when they are in VR.

 

Even in plain old non VR DCS the sound is 3D spatial. If you use your number pad to turn your head the sound is is changed to match.

 

I think the oculus audio is nothing new.

[hannibal]

Even in plain old non VR DCS the sound is 3D spatial. If you use your number pad to turn your head the sound is is changed to match.

 

I think the oculus audio is nothing new.

 

VR spatial goes beyond 3d spatial. in a regular setup like in a 5.1 setup, you can sense things coming from left or right, or forward...

 

but in VR, if audio is FULLY spatial, you can close your eyes, and if a sounds source is above your head, you will sense the source as if its above you or, close, or far away.

 

in face current VR game developers have to adjust parameters to get the correct effect.

again, if there is a DK2 user who can comment on this please, i would like to hear their experience.

 

(im tired of hearing from those who want to comment from a non VR exeperience. its hard to explain VR spatial audio to someone who hasnt tried HTRF audio like realspace 3d, like me show a photo show someone a split VR photo to someone who hasnt worn a headset.)

 

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oculus OC2 talk

 

what i really curious from a oculus user, is if a plane flying above you actually sounds like if it is above you but at the same time you are looking down at your virtual joystick...

Edited January 9, 2016 by hannibal

[Kuky]

There is no such thing as more than stereo sound in reality. You have 2 ears only and 2 ear drums. The way you can tell where the sound is coming from or how far it is is based on sound level left and right ear drum hears, there is nothing more to it... you hear a sound, you turn a head a bit and you locate the sound by sensing sound levels as you turn.

[metalnwood]

Thats true Kuky, we also get cues (from memory reading about this in the past) due to the shape of our ears etc.. So we can tell things that are behind us as well as in front.

 

I just tried that demo in the dk2. There are scenes where it is very easy to close your eyes and tell where things are coming from but you could also do that in half life with a headset.

 

I think there is s lot of filtering and 'clarity' to help you pick out the sounds that are important.

 

I also think a lot of things are due to our learned understanding of nature and other things. E.g., something above us because we expect it to be above us. I have a feeling if we expected it to be below us we would be similarly convinced by the sounds.

 

It did a good job, where it seemed to fail was at times when you directly stared at something and it lost it's position. Like a large soundstage on a stereo. Same volume in both ears and the positioning was not so pinpoint.

[hannibal]

There is no such thing as more than stereo sound in reality. You have 2 ears only and 2 ear drums. The way you can tell where the sound is coming from or how far it is is based on sound level left and right ear drum hears, there is nothing more to it... you hear a sound, you turn a head a bit and you locate the sound by sensing sound levels as you turn.

 

i tried a realspace 3d demo at a virtual reality meetup. there is a difference. maybe there is not. i dont know how DCS is in VR, so i cant make a comparsion.

 

Kuky, have you played DCS in VR? can you tell me that a plane flying above you sounds like it is above you even though you are looking else where in DCS?

[aeliusg]

VR spatial goes beyond 3d spatial. in a regular setup like in a 5.1 setup, you can sense things coming from left or right, or forward...

 

but in VR, if audio is FULLY spatial, you can close your eyes, and if a sounds source is above your head, you will sense the source as if its above you or, close, or far away.

 

in face current VR game developers have to adjust parameters to get the correct effect.

again, if there is a DK2 user who can comment on this please, i would like to hear their experience.

 

(im tired of hearing from those who want to comment from a non VR exeperience. its hard to explain VR spatial audio to someone who hasnt tried HTRF audio like realspace 3d, like me show a photo show someone a split VR photo to someone who hasnt worn a headset.)

 

what i really curious from a oculus user, is if a plane flying above you actually sounds like if it is above you but at the same time you are looking down at your virtual joystick...

 

I don't think ED has integrated the Oculus Audio SDK yet. It sounded like usual in-game sound.

 

There is no such thing as more than stereo sound in reality. You have 2 ears only and 2 ear drums. The way you can tell where the sound is coming from or how far it is is based on sound level left and right ear drum hears, there is nothing more to it... you hear a sound, you turn a head a bit and you locate the sound by sensing sound levels as you turn.

 

This is true, but even most game engines use more than point sources for their audio. More detailed HRTFs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function) create more convincing audio environments.

[Kuky]

i tried a realspace 3d demo at a virtual reality meetup. there is a difference. maybe there is not. i dont know how DCS is in VR, so i cant make a comparsion.

 

Kuky, have you played DCS in VR? can you tell me that a plane flying above you sounds like it is above you even though you are looking else where in DCS?

 

No I haven't. But I think everyone can test something to see if I am right or not (that there is no such thing as more than stereo in real life.

 

Have someone sit in a chair... put a cover over their eyes so they can't see anything, then have something creating a sound right in front of them and have it moved so that it goes above them (keeping the distance the same and always right at the center - not moving it close to one ear) and I think, they should not be able to tell if the object is moved above them. Actually I will want to try this myself.

 

PS: if you want to test this, make sure you don't tell them what you will do and where you will move the sound source... they need to be able to sit still completely and guess where the source is moving.

[TomOnSteam]

Software like realspace 3d and dolby surround etc enhance the 3Dness of audio no doubt. It's usually called virtual surround (since headphones usually only have a left and right speaker).

But it is at the expense of audio quality and clarity(it can sound a bit muddy compared to the original source for example). For most people that is fine, since most people are using gaming headsets and speakers (which are typically quite low fidelity, despite what the marketing tells you). For most people that's fine as they aren't audiophiles.

 

 

It's a little bit more complicated than just sound level left and right, it uses various frequency filters and other effects as well.

 

You can already try out a similar 3D enhancement by downloading and installing Razer's free software:http://rzr.to/surround-pc-download

 

You can see if you like the effect or not :)

 

I personally find it a bit disorienting and hate the warping/underwater/muddy effects applied to the original audio, so I tend to switch these types of things off, especially in DCS where the spacial sound is done very well already (especially if you have a good set of cans.)

Edited January 9, 2016 by TomOnSteam

[Flamin_Squirrel]

There is no such thing as more than stereo sound in reality. You have 2 ears only and 2 ear drums. The way you can tell where the sound is coming from or how far it is is based on sound level left and right ear drum hears, there is nothing more to it... you hear a sound, you turn a head a bit and you locate the sound by sensing sound levels as you turn.

 

That's not true, it's not that simple; that's just how games have typically done things before.

 

We use other queues to tell where sound comes from, including timing. A sound coming from your left will reach your left ear before your right and your brain picks this up. I expect modelling this this is the kind of development that's going on.

[Kuky]

Well that is just an effect. It tries to mimic the different sounds you would hear from different directions, but it still isn't anything more than 2 sound sources, hence stereo.

 

Again, you have only 2 sound sensors, and the only way to locate the sound source is by turning hear to pin point it (by comparing sound volume in each ear)... also people use eyes to "verify" where the sound is coming from. Try closing your eyes and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Kuky]

That's not true, it's not that simple; that's just how games have typically done things before.

 

We use other queues to tell where sound comes from, including timing. A sound coming from your left will reach your left ear before your right and your brain picks this up. I expect modelling this this is the kind of development that's going on.

 

It is that simple. And using time difference? really? at that short distance that your ears make? please...

 

The only reason headset is not as good to determine sound source is because no matter which way you turn your head, the sound is always coming from same place. This is why they use some software to change sound to give it different "feeling". Life is in good ol' stereo. :)

Edited January 9, 2016 by Kuky

[Flamin_Squirrel]

And using time difference? really? at that short distance that your ears make? please...

 

Yes, really. If you're going to be patronising, at least be correct when you do it.

 

See second paragraph.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

[Kuky]

Yes, really. If you're going to be patronising, at least be correct when you do it.

 

See second paragraph.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

 

You mean:

 

"The auditory system uses several cues for sound source localization, including time- and level-differences between both ears, spectral information, timing analysis, correlation analysis, and pattern matching."

 

Sure, it says level difference, spectral information would be probably used for knowing if sound is far or near (if far there will be some echo as sound bounces back from other objects and echo is not much lover then original sound) and that timing they talk about (well they use it twice if you haven't noticed) I find bit questionable as ears distance is very small. How long would the delay be? EDIT: its around 0.5 of a millisecond... I doubt human ear is sensitive enough to tell this difference... maybe bets can?

 

The correlation and patter is nothing but person moving head (or animals that can moving ears) to get stronger levels and therefore can pin point the direction of the source, and using memory what you've learned before about different sound sources.

 

Look, its enough for you to know that you only have 2 sound sensors and by definition this is a "stereo mode". To get more info on the sound, the 2 sensors have to be re positioned, and as you do that sound level and tones change. But you are not able to tell sound distance alone from ears, you need to have other information to tell distance (you can tell if its far or close yes, but not how much far, as sound level at higher level further away will sound same as sound of lover level closer. Sound effects like time delay helps, but only when used in combination with other sensors... your eyes (in game you can see explosion and time delay will trigger the sound coming to you, we already have this in DCS) but if you were to close your eyes, and just hear the sound, you won't be able to tell this... well there is things like some echo again, or rumbling which sound effects can bring, but it's still in stereo.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Kuky

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I think we need to get back the simple point I was (trying) to make:

 

Yes I think you're correct that a realistic audio experience can be delivered by a simple twin speaker stereo setup, and yes varying amplitude to each ear is an important part of this; but you're not correct in saying that that's where development of a realistic audio experience stops.

 

To develop the best 3D audio experience, as many aspects of the way we perceive sounds (including time difference between left and right) will need to be considered. Saying amplitude is the only aspect that needs to be considered is just plain wrong.

[Kuky]

For source direction only, yes amplitude difference between 2 ears is used. How rest of sound source is determined (distance) comes from echoes, knowing sound type (or what makes it, which if known we know approximately how loud the sound from that source is, and so on), and this is where sound effects and good sound engine kicks in.

[doveman]

Virtual 3D audio like Razer never works for me, it seems my brain just isn't compatible with it. I can easily tell if a sound is above or in front or behind me IRL but not with these virtual 3D audio techniques (I've tried the Dolby version as well) but other people say it works for them, so I doubt the Oculus version will work for me either.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

For source direction only, yes amplitude difference between 2 ears is used. How rest of sound source is determined (distance) comes from echoes, knowing sound type (or what makes it, which if known we know approximately how loud the sound from that source is, and so on), and this is where sound effects and good sound engine kicks in.

 

Good. Hopefully now you'll concede that the following was wrong:

 

There is no such thing as more than stereo sound in reality. You have 2 ears only and 2 ear drums. The way you can tell where the sound is coming from or how far it is is based on sound level left and right ear drum hears, there is nothing more to it... you hear a sound, you turn a head a bit and you locate the sound by sensing sound levels as you turn.

[Brisse]

Wow, this sound discussion is amateurish at best.

 

Hannibal: My answer still stands. What I meant is that the sound you get in the DK2 is exactly the same as the sound you get in front of a monitor. I assume your actual question is something along the lines of "Is that good enough to be able to correlate sound position with the visuals in VR world". I couldn't give you a definitive answer because I don't have DK1 or DK2, but it will most likely not work correctly. You can try using some kind of HRTF surround to stereo down-mixing, but it's probably not going to work perfectly because that doesn't simulate being in the word. It only simulates you being in a room with a surround speaker system around you. It won't feel like actually being inside DCS.

 

Virtual 3D audio like Razer never works for me

 

Every individual is different, and we all have different headphones. It's only a matter of getting it tuned correctly to your headphones, ears and brain. These sound cues introduced by virtual surround aren't fake, or made up. They recreate the effects that environment, your head and ear canal has on the sound waves. If it's done right, you brain will be fooled into thinking it's real. You just haven't heard it the right way yet.

 

There is no such thing as more than stereo sound in reality. You have 2 ears only and 2 ear drums. The way you can tell where the sound is coming from or how far it is is based on sound level left and right ear drum hears, there is nothing more to it... you hear a sound, you turn a head a bit and you locate the sound by sensing sound levels as you turn.

 

Wow. I know most people really believe this and don't realize the complex workings of the brain and how the environment physically affects sound waves, but it's really ignorant of you to preach this without doing a bit of research first. Yes, it's true we only have two ears, but that is enough to be able to distinguish things in 3D space, left, right, front back, up and down. The brain really is an amazing thing. You should read up on how it does this. It's not some mumbo jumbo. It's very real and has scientific explanations with mathematical models that let's us create virtual surround.

[Kuky]

Yes, it's true we only have two ears, but that is enough to be able to distinguish things in 3D space, left, right, front back, up and down.

 

You are missing the plot as that is exactly what I am saying, the direction of sound is only determined from sound level difference between the two ears, but only if the head is moved (you must move the head first after you hear the sound, to see how sound level changes as your ears focus on listening from different direction). If you don't move your head, you can know approximately if sound is more towards left or right side, but you will not know the direction exactly until you compare what you hear when changing head rotation (or location)

Edited January 9, 2016 by Kuky

[Kuky]

Good. Hopefully now you'll concede that the following was wrong:

 

Alright, made a mistake there when I said you can tell distance from sound level alone. You got me there.

[Brisse]

You are missing the plot as that is exactly what I am saying, the direction of sound is only determined from sound level difference between the two ears, but only if the head is moved (you must move the head first after you hear the sound, to see how sound level changes as your ears focus on listening from different direction). If you don't move your head, you can know approximately if sound is more towards left or right side, but you will not know the direction exactly until you compare what you hear when changing head rotation (or location)

 

Alright, made a mistake there when I said you can tell distance from sound level alone. You got me there.

 

What you are saying is true for traditional gaming, but it's just not how the real world works. In VR, the traditional methods won't work (in the sense of creating a feel of presence in the VR world), because your brain will know the difference. Old methods of reproducing sound in games must be thrown out of the window if one is to create a believable soundscape in VR. Sound now has to follow the laws of physics and be affected by the virtual environment. Since headphones are attached directly to your head, there must also be a simulation of how your head affects the sound entering the ear canal (example: how the sound is affected by coming from the left, travelling around your head, and entering your right ear canal). The time difference has to be simulated. This is what HRTF (head related transfer function) is all about.

 

It's pointless for me to sit here and go into details. Instead, it is better to just let a professional explain it:

 

And if you still doubt how it's possible to simulate spatial sound through headphones, just go listen to an binaural recording (microphones placed inside a dummy head). The famous barbershop recording should convince you (MUST USE HEADPHONES):

 

The barbershop demo is a good example of what we have to simulate to create a sense of presence in VR.

[Kuky]

I am not doubting at all that stereo headphones can't simulate directional sound. In fact DCS already does that, if you move head in game left, you will get more volume on left side and vice versa but this is done with headset only, and when head movement in game matches 1:1 head movement in real life, which is what VR like OR should bring. I was saying that things like 5.1 in VR (speaker system, not headset) can't simulate it fully because they are missing sound coming from top/bottom (5.1 speakers are positioned in same horizontal plane, so you can't get more volume from top space when you move head upwards, from speakers that are staying in same position).

 

Maybe, I am not explaining myself well enough, but anyway, to make it short (now), I will say that good directional sound is definitely achievable with good stereo headset, as long as the game sound engine takes into account what your ears should hear at any given position.

[Brisse]

In fact DCS already does that, if you move head in game left, you will get more volume on left side and vice versa

 

Yes, but DCS does it in a very simplistic and fake way. It's been the standard in the industry so people have come to accept it, but once VR comes into the picture, it will not be good enough. It will seem fake and take you out of the experience. You say that you have to move your head to determine the direction, but this is only the result of how sound works in DCS. If it was done properly, you wouldn't need to move your head at all, and you would still be able to pinpoint the direction of the sound source fairly accurately. If it was done properly, and the sound was coming from 8 o'clock, slightly above you while someone was asking you "Where does it come from?", you would be able to say 8 o'clock slightly high. You wouldn't say 7 o'clock. That's how accurate our brain and ears are. Traditional games like DCS aren't able to use this to their full advantage, even though they could be designed to do so with technology that has existed for some time. With VR, proper sound spatialization (not old fake method) will be necessary. This is why Oculus has released Audio SDK for developers.

[Kuky]

If it was done properly, you wouldn't need to move your head at all, and you would still be able to pinpoint the direction of the sound source fairly accurately. If it was done properly, and the sound was coming from 8 o'clock, slightly above you while someone was asking you "Where does it come from?", you would be able to say 8 o'clock slightly high. You wouldn't say 7 o'clock. That's how accurate our brain and ears are.

 

And that is exactly why I say this is not true, and why in real life you have to keep moving your head to know exact direction of the sound, that is, if the sound is stationary. If the sound source moves fairly quickly around you, sound source movement replaces your head movement.

 

And I have said, you can't know sound is above you (without any sound source movement) with your eyes closed and no head movement, until you start to move your head and start getting more cues as to what sound levels are in each ear when position of the ear is changed relative to the sound.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Kuky