Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[RabidRider]

Hm, I see now that my post probably sounds a bit sarcastic, but I really think that you are missing a lot if you have a spring joystick :)

 

Warthog is nice and very expensive, however it has a spring which is big NO imho.

 

And, no offence but talking about toys, SimXperience Stage 4 motion Simulator looks like massage chair gone crazy.

 

Google '6dof motion platform', that should be much better for CV1.

 

What joystick do you use?

[metalnwood]

The trouble with a 940 for VR is its serious lack of buttons compared to other offerings and it's limited configuration in a pit. Centre mount is all but ruled out because of the large base.

 

If FFB was on the 'pro' column, there wouldn't be anything else when compared to the other sticks about.

 

I know what you are saying about the wheel and disabling FFB but flying is quite different imho. Getting the feedback in racing can be important, I use a DD servo wheel and wouldnt want to be without it. There is valuable information sent back.

 

In flying the only really valuable information I miss is from trimming some aircraft but it's nowhere nearly as big a deal as feeling traction loss in racing.

[DerekSpeare]

One must have some type of FFB in racing/driving sims, especially with VR...AND one AbSoLuTeLy MUST have many buttons!!!

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Hm, I see now that my post probably sounds a bit sarcastic, but I really think that you are missing a lot if you have a spring joystick :)

 

Why? That's what the real Hornet has.

[Vladdo]

I like FFB on my 940 mainly because I can feel when I'm just about to hit the stall limit so can back off..

[dot]

Hornet is just one aircraft.

 

Problem with spring is that it gives you NO feedback information from the sim.

 

You don't feel the stick stiffen up as you accelerate, you don't get any feedback when you are about to stall, you don't feel anything when your plane gets shot down, wind conditions? forget that, etc...

 

I could go on, but the point is that springs gives you no feedback :)

 

It's a real shame that someone convinced hardware manufacturers to stop producing FF joysticks, if they continued progressing (like FF wheels) we could have brushless or direct drive flight sticks by now...

 

It makes me sad, but I still have working Microsoft Sidewinder FF2 and Logitech G940 to remind me of the good old days :)

 

I wonder if anyone tried combining two FF wheels to make a flight stick with FF :joystick:?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Hornet is just one aircraft.

 

Problem with spring is that it gives you NO feedback information from the sim.

 

You don't feel the stick stiffen up as you accelerate, you don't get any feedback when you are about to stall, you don't feel anything when your plane gets shot down, wind conditions? forget that, etc...

 

I could go on, but the point is that springs gives you no feedback :)

 

It's a real shame that someone convinced hardware manufacturers to stop producing FF joysticks, if they continued progressing (like FF wheels) we could have brushless or direct drive flight sticks by now...

 

It makes me sad, but I still have working Microsoft Sidewinder FF2 and Logitech G940 to remind me of the good old days :)

 

I wonder if anyone tried combining two FF wheels to make a flight stick with FF :joystick:?

 

Depends what you want to get out of your sim. If you're primarily a prop plane enthusiast then what you say is true.

 

But if you're into modern fighters, then a spring stick is more realistic.

[dot]

Depends what you want to get out of your sim. If you're primarily a prop plane enthusiast then what you say is true.

 

But if you're into modern fighters, then a spring stick is more realistic.

 

Spring sticks are never more realistic :)

 

Here MrTheOx wrote a better explanation:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Spring sticks are never more realistic :)

 

Yes they are. That's what the real Hornet uses. Read the manual.

[dot]

Yes they are. That's what the real Hornet uses. Read the manual.

 

Sure, please be useful and send us the link where that's mentioned, like MrTheOx did in his post.

Thanks.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Manual A1-F18AC-NFM-000, see page I-2-43 paragraph 2.8.2, line 4.

 

"Stick and rudder feel are provided by spring cartridges."

[dot]

Manual A1-F18AC-NFM-000, see page I-2-43 paragraph 2.8.2, line 4.

 

"Stick and rudder feel are provided by spring cartridges."

 

Thanks for that, if you read the rest of the paragraph:

 

Although there is no aerodynamic

feedback to the stick and rudder pedals,

the effect is simulated by flight control computer

scheduling of control surface deflection versus

pilot input as a function of flight conditions.

 

How is this this feedback simulated on your spring?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Thanks for that, if you read the rest of the paragraph:

 

Although there is no aerodynamic

feedback to the stick and rudder pedals,

the effect is simulated by flight control computer

scheduling of control surface deflection versus

pilot input as a function of flight conditions.

 

How is this this feedback simulated on your spring?

 

I've read the rest of the paragraph. Apparently you haven't.

 

Feedback is provided by flight computer scheduling of control surfaces, as it says. Basically what this means is that the springs provide constant force per degree of stick/rudder deflection, but the flight computers will take your inputs and adjust the outputs when moving the control surfaces. Chapter 11 describes how this works.

[frogger]

a spring dampened stick has no enviroment feedback u hold it and u see the plane moving on your screen. the wind blows your plane tilts and u are given a visual reference of this happening.

 

with force feed back the wind blows banking your aircraft , your stick rattles and bounces as the turbulance moves your aircraft around aswell as the stick getting pressure on it.

 

in a real f18 u may not feel this as much in the stick but your whole body would feel every little bit of wind and turbulance and thats why ffb is so great as it adds so much to flight simulation.

[dot]

I've read the rest of the paragraph. Apparently you haven't.

 

Feedback is provided by flight computer scheduling of control surfaces, as it says. Basically what this means is that the springs provide constant force per degree of stick/rudder deflection, but the flight computers will take your inputs and adjust the outputs when moving the control surfaces. Chapter 11 describes how this works.

 

Reading and understanding is not the same:

 

11.1.3 Stick Force. In maneuvering flight,

there is a light but constant stick force per g

(about 3½ to 4½ pounds/g). Unlike many other

aircraft, maneuvering stick forces do not vary

significantly over the entire operating envelope

so long as the AOA is less than AOA feedback of

22°. Where AOA feedback is active, maneuvering

stick forces are increased significantly.

 

another interesting bit:

 

2.8.2.10 Mechanical Linkage (MECH).

Mechanical linkage provides backup control of

the stabilators for pitch and roll control. A

MECH ON caution is displayed on the DDI. See

FCS Failure Indications and Effects, section V.

In the mechanical mode, stick movement

directly controls the stabilator actuators bypassing

all force sensors, the flight control computers,

all air data, all motion feedbacks, servos, and

associated electrical wiring

 

It seems that F-18 has very sophisticated control system as opposed to overpriced, spring joystick you have.

[dot]

I have a MSFFB2. I like to use ffb for the trimming alone. FFB joysticks are too weak and rude for convincing effects. Even for trimming they are barely valid. But I love how it feels to trim out the force like in a real aircraft instead of the gimmick you have to do in a spring centered joystick.

 

With proper trimming in mind, instead of FFB joysticks, I think it would be cool to have spring centered joystick with a servo mechanism that would allow to change the center of the spring force. That could give the quality of a spring joystick combined with the ability to emulate proper trimming without having to use more or less cheap and small electrical motors to make all the force freehand.

 

I think a put more thinking into this thing of trimming in flight simulators than usual. But I got a bit obsessed about it when I was getting my PPL. When I found out that even the praised MSFFB2 is still a bit weak, and even worse, how much of a hassle it is the little zone without forces around the center, I came out with that idea.

 

MSFF2 came out in August 1998, we have much better motors now in FF wheels.

New version of MSFF joystick with brushes motors like in T300RS or (if sky is the limit) direct driver motors would be more than adequate to simulate the wretched spring (for those who want it) and also all other effect that pilots of every kind of aircraft can feel.

[Rocky49]

FF would be great but no one is building one that most of us can afford.

[dot]

That's because joystick manufacturers think that no one wants one, and post praising the spring do not help.

 

What everyone can do is send an email or make a forum post at your favourite manufacturer and tell them that you would like to buy a high end force feedback joystick.

 

New version of G940 made out of metal and with brushless 20-30w motors shouldn't cost more than a warthog.

[Frusheen]

Did the oculus rift thread get moved? Why have we several pages talking about joysticks? Maybe people are just making conversation until the end of March. Haha.

 

Now that we are on the subject isn't there a patent on force feedback flight sticks. I thought that's why we haven't seen any in years.

[DerekSpeare]

Did the oculus rift thread get moved? Why have we several pages talking about joysticks? Maybe people are just making conversation until the end of March. Haha.

 

Now that we are on the subject isn't there a patent on force feedback flight sticks. I thought that's why we haven't seen any in years.

 

Apparently :music_whistling:

 

Immersion holds the patent on canned FFB. Sim Experience and another company both use their own FFB technology which is - from what I understand - a connection to the physic's data pipeline. These are high end racing wheel makers. Their implementation is different somehow different than Immersion's, thereby not running up against the patent (at least as I know it).

 

A FFB stick for the 21st Century would be cool. The F16 uses load cell technology from I recall.

 

Anyhow, this is the Oculus thread...FFB in VR could add some immersion (no pun but a freebie) to the experience. Tactile transducers would be cool, too.

 

Since my company's business focus is on sim racing, I am in tune with all of the goodies we have there. I can say that it's very sophisticated, with some really valuable hardware components to steep one into the moment. Why do I feel flight sim enthusiasts are behind the immersion curve to a degree?

 

Just a FFB stick and properly-driven transducers on four corners would really liven up things. For VR it would be a different experience. :pilotfly:

[Frusheen]

Apparently :music_whistling:

 

Immersion holds the patent on canned FFB. Sim Experience and another company both use their own FFB technology which is - from what I understand - a connection to the physic's data pipeline. These are high end racing wheel makers. Their implementation is different somehow different than Immersion's, thereby not running up against the patent (at least as I know it).

 

A FFB stick for the 21st Century would be cool. The F16 uses load cell technology from I recall.

 

Anyhow, this is the Oculus thread...FFB in VR could add some immersion (no pun but a freebie) to the experience. Tactile transducers would be cool, too.

 

Since my company's business focus is on sim racing, I am in tune with all of the goodies we have there. I can say that it's very sophisticated, with some really valuable hardware components to steep one into the moment. Why do I feel flight sim enthusiasts are behind the immersion curve to a degree?

 

Just a FFB stick and properly-driven transducers on four corners would really liven up things. For VR it would be a different experience. :pilotfly:

 

Preaching to the choir Derek. I'm still working on my g-seat for the rift. Tensioning belts and seat flaps to simulate g forces. Without any actual movement which would mess with the rift camera (confuse platform movement for head movement resulting in unwanted view changes). I'll also be mounting my Jetseat motors in the foam of the flaps.

 

I like some of the DIY solutions. Ian's BFF yokes are a good example. A stick version would be great. I don't think he provides code to read our output lua files though. I built his shaker system and had it working very well with X-plane using XPUIPC (similar to fsuipc for fsx). I don't have the knowledge to code it to DCS though.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Apparently :music_whistling:The F16 uses load cell technology from I recall.

 

Anyhow, this is the Oculus thread...FFB in VR could add some immersion (no pun but a freebie) to the experience. Tactile transducers would be cool, too.

 

The F16 does use load cell tech.

 

But the point I've been trying to make is that lack of FFB is not necessarily an immersion breaker (not like it is for sim racing anway).

 

You don't feel turbulence or anything else through the stick, even one with mechanical controls (rods and pulleys). What you feel through the stick of an aircraft with are loads generated by airspeed. As speed increases the controls become stiffer.

 

This is what feedback in an aircraft is all about; maintaining a relationship between stick force and the response from the aircraft (i.e. lateral stick displacement to G load).

 

In an F-16 or F-18 the stick force for a given displacement doesn't get stiffer with increasing speed like mechanical controls, so the FBW schedules smaller control surface movements to give the same effect. In this regard, a constant force to displacement stick for your desktop, whether it force sensing stick (F-16) or spring stick (F-18) isn't necessarily unrealistic at all.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Flamin_Squirrel
made post clearer

[metalnwood]

Spring sticks are never more realistic :)

 

Here MrTheOx wrote a better explanation:

 

 

MrTheOx you quoted agrees with a post of mine a little back. He finds it hard to say FFB is an advantage over a modern hotas because of the lack of buttons on FFB implementations - for modern aircraft.

 

Add the rift, the topic on conversation, and lack of buttons on any current FFB stick is a killer.

 

It wasn't a single individual that talked to companies and killed FFB. It was the collective audience across all users. Most people are only buying $20 jopysticks, no room for FFB there.

[dot]

The F16 does use load cell tech.

 

But the point I've been trying to make is that lack of FFB is not necessarily an immersion breaker (not like it is for sim racing anway).

 

You don't feel turbulence or anything else through the stick, even one with mechanical controls (rods and pulleys). What you feel through the stick of an aircraft with are loads generated by airspeed. As speed increases the controls become stiffer.

 

This is what feedback in an aircraft is all about; maintaining a relationship between stick force and the response from the aircraft (i.e. lateral stick displacement to G load).

 

In an F-16 or F-18 the stick force for a given displacement doesn't get stiffer with increasing speed like mechanical controls, so the FBW schedules smaller control surface movements to give the same effect. In this regard, a constant force to displacement stick for your desktop, whether it force sensing stick (F-16) or spring stick (F-18) isn't necessarily unrealistic at all.

 

It's as realistic as a thumbstick on a gamepad.

Actually not even as realistic as most gamepads these days come with rumble motors...

[empeck]

Add the rift, the topic on conversation, and lack of buttons on any current FFB stick is a killer.

 

That's why I fly helos with G940 stick and x65f throttle :) For helos FFB, even basic like the G940 is amazing, force trim is something I wish Arma 3 had.

 

For props and jets I use x65f stick.