Announcing Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 3

[GGTharos]

but those 36 were the average if it were to be like that, so the instantaneous should've been more than 45deg/s for 2-3 seconds before starting to get lower as the speed was bled, and those kind of values are completely outside any aircraft's capability nomatter what type,

 

I may recall incorrectly, but I recall seeing the F-18 turn rate charts showing as much as 50 deg/s ITR. Again, I may be recalling incorrectly.

 

Now i've been playing LOMAC for quite a while, FC1 and finally FC2, and i've tested almost every aspect of everything you might think in these games , more than playing..., cause i'm a fanatic for realism if you might call me that way, so i've tested and tested stuff in it, mainly for the Su-27 and F-15's performance characteristics in many aspects like, turn rates, roll rates, longitudinal accelerations or decelerations and done comparisons with actual real videos, it wasn't a hard thing, but i just thought about this despite anyone else playing it! I don't put my money on speculatios and blah blah of other people..., i simply look into the real thing... and that's what i trust the most!

You're right, they're not tuned to your videos. THey're tuned to their real life operating manuals. Looks like your money is all speculation.

 

Now i agree with Sov13t that there might be ambiguity between game tests and real footages as compared, yet the differences are too high and can't be logically explained!

My explanation is that you have no useful sources to go off of.

 

make the devs have a small break for one day and try to simulate an advanced flight model for the Su-27 only for the subsonic region as i've said (not a complete flight envelope), and there you should see the difference in flight performances between FC2 and DCS, if done well...!

Since it only takes a small break, why don't you go for it?

 

In FC1, the Flanker was way closer to real than it became in FC2..., in FC2 the Flanker was intentionally cheated i believe...!

Nope ... in fact it underperforms in certain cases.

 

and one very accurate, but i mean..., very accurate, is the Falcon BMS simulator for the F-16...!

You know what else is very accurate? A-10C.

 

So having this said..., i only wish for the best, as i'm not here to waste my time or to talk much for no reason..., i just can't wait to see it better, and to be able to forget of the things that i see and aren't right...!

 

Stop wasting our time too. Chart comparison to operator manuals or it didn't happen.

[MaverickF22]

A youtube video is proof of nothing,unless you know for a fact that the plane has been taken to his structural limit in that airshow,which is obviusly not the case in almost every airshow.

 

Do you know what a structural limit is? And if so..., it means that in that airshow, it quite achieved it's best of ever turning capabilities..., so moreover it turns much too great in the game again!

Edited November 10, 2012 by MaverickF22

[Postal2]

And now President Obama ok!

 

we want Fc3! F-15 ^ ^

 

 

When will it be available approximately (except two more weeks)

 

 

Cheerssss..

 

 

Thank's a lot .

[MaverickF22]

Nope ... in fact it underperforms in certain cases.

.

 

Where? At roll rates? At Ix inertia which seems like a quarter of the value it should have and jumps from a left aileron roll to a right aileron roll just like an Extra-300? Or at the greater overall turn rates than it had in FC1? Thrust me..., i've made some graphs with turning times for the F-15, MIG-29 and Su-27 for both FC1 and FC2 and noticed that the F-15 was having an exaggerated turning ability in FC1 while the Su-27 had quite a realistic one..., while in FC2 things are just the opposite for these two..., while the MIG-29 and Su-33 remained with the same values, except for engine thrusts which had been increased for all the fighters (that means except the Su-25's and A-10A).

 

I don't really see where did the Su-27 had been degraded from FC1, or it's barely noticeable!

 

And yet for charts and real flight manual performance reports..., i have a better eye for comparing a real video to the actual game, than comparing the flight manual reports with it! And different videos of the same plane don't show different stuff, but just the same, hence the fact that it could be an accurate source of info..., more accurate than everything if it is flown at the edge of it's envelope!

 

If i were to compare a real video of the A-10C's turning capability with what DCS had provided, i can guarantee that they'd match perfectly, or if i were to compare a video of the P-51D's turning performances, again i would find the same thing, but comparing a real video of what Flanker can do doesn't fit at all with what FC2 shows!

 

And trust me, if i could manage to turn the Flanker's actual FM into an AFM, respecting that aircraft's real aero coefficients, then i would make my time for it, but i don't have a licence for that as the guy who's making the MIG-21 for DCS for example..., cause i'd definitely do that!

Edited November 7, 2012 by MaverickF22

[ZMEY-HS-]

...i didn't see an actual footage of that...He also stated that the plane had 36 deg/s turn rate, yeah, 360/10 = 36, but those 36 were the average if it were to be like that, so the instantaneous should've been more than 45deg/s for 2-3 seconds before starting to get lower as the speed was bled...

 

Yea, but you can see him at 19:42-46 doing 180 for 4 secs, which is 45* per sec. 6-7 secs for the rest 180 seems pretty real for me.

[GGTharos]

Thrust me...,

 

No.

 

I don't really see where did the Su-27 had been degraded from FC1, or it's barely noticeable!

 

Who said anything about it degrading from FC1?

 

And yet for charts and real flight manual performance reports..., i have a better eye for comparing a real video to the actual game, than comparing the flight manual reports with it!

 

You just disqualified yourself.

 

And different videos of the same plane don't show different stuff, but just the same, hence the fact that it could be an accurate source of info..., more accurate than everything if it is flown at the edge of it's envelope!

 

Really? How many g's is the pilot pulling. Do you know? What's the airspeed at each given time? What DO you actually know?

 

If i were to compare a real video of the A-10C's turning capability with what DCS had provided, i can guarantee that they'd match perfectly,

 

LOL :) They'd match, but you'd never know. Airshows are flown according to fairly strict procedure for each maneuver.

[MaverickF22]

Yea, but you can see him at 19:42-46 doing 180 for 4 secs, which is 45* per sec. 6-7 secs for the rest 180 seems pretty real for me.

 

He passed almost above the camera which gives you the feeling of a sudden turn rate increase! That turn wasn't a complete 180 degree, but rather 160 for 4.3 seconds...! It didn't start right from the opposite direction where it finally came at! If the cameraman was further back or if you could have an onboard view, you would've seen the difference! Indeed it showed an impressive instantaneous turn rate, which in the case of a 160 deg in about 4.3 seconds (i couldn't count it lower than 4.3 for that turn, but rather 4.5, so just let's say) would lead to an average of 37.2 deg/s, for which i can say "hats down", but the airspeed bled would lead to a rapid degrading of the average turn rate through a 360 degree turn, not to talk about stabilizing around a terminal airspeed if the stick was to be held full aft for further continuous turns:P, the turn rate would be very low..., but in our "game" it's just stabilizing somewhere at 24 deg/s at full aft stick held and at 300km/h, so i have no more words for that! I love the Flanker and i like this plane very much, much more than the Eagle..., but i hate when things don't respect the real thing..., just that!

[falcon_120]

Sorry but your logic is flawed,if everything in science and engineering would had

to be sized by the eye of an 'expert' like you then we would have rulers with a mean error of

1-2 cm in a 10cm ruler,because according to you,things are measured by sight...

If a lockheed Martin engineer comes to this forum and show you all data avalaible about an f-16,tunel data,performance charts with different loadout etc, and the data says for example

that a f-16 turns at a maximum of 20º/s ,you'd come sorry sir,but I¡ve just wacth a youtube f-16 airshow and by my watch the plane have a 15º/s turn ratio so...

 

Again,if you want something to be precise,please stop the I've watched a video thing, try to google for some real data.

[Sov13t]

i have a better eye for comparing a real video to the actual game

 

Instant classic.

 

You are in the wrong game genre.

[Witchking]

Instant classic.

 

You are in the wrong game genre.

 

The classic was "Trust (Thrust) me...." :p

[MaverickF22]

Now here are some credible charts that i could find on some other forums:

 

http://www.f-16.net/attachments/comparison_of_turn_rate_characteristics_for_the_f_15c_and_su_27_182.jpg

 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208321&d=1347999333

 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208324&d=1347999333

 

So now you could see what the manual shows..., and the turn rate is much lower than what the airshow proved and that's mainly due to initial the conditions like height and weight for these charts..., and also due to the fact that an airshow plane will always be lighter than a combat ready plane..., as it may have it's cannon taken off, radar probably and having the nose left with only a lower weight ballast to not let the aircraft become too unstable, and various equipments which can be unload from the aircraft..., and that indeed serves for a greatly improved turn rate!

[MaverickF22]

You are in the wrong game genre.

 

It is called Lock On Flaming Cliffs 2!

[MaverickF22]

If a lockheed Martin engineer comes to this forum and show you all data avalaible about an f-16,tunel data,performance charts with different loadout etc, and the data says for example

that a f-16 turns at a maximum of 20º/s ,you'd come sorry sir,but I¡ve just wacth a youtube f-16 airshow and by my watch the plane have a 15º/s turn ratio so...

 

Again,if you want something to be precise,please stop the I've watched a video thing, try to google for some real data.

 

If a Lockheed Martin engineer would come here and show me that, i would trust him and also the video of an F-16 and i doubt that i'd find the gap that you're pointing at...:music_whistling:! Furthermore..., i already have the aerodynamic coefficient tables for the F-16 and guess what..., if you apply the corresponding coeffs in their corresponding formulas you would find the same G load of the aircraft for a given airspeed compared to an airshow demonstration, hence the turn rate! The only thing hard to control when you want to calculate these would be the variation of the CL and CD vs the continuously dropping airspeed, thus leading to a constantly dropping lift force, respectively turn rate..., so you may only talk about turn rate at a given condition in time, or simply to average the turn rate! And maybe that's what you've pointed at when you thought i'd say that the F-16 should have 15 deg/s instead of 20 by just watching a video! I know when and how these factors vary, so you'd be going nowhere by making fun of me!

 

Now why wouldn't the same things apply in Lock On? I don't know..., or should i call it G-loc On for whatever reason...!

[aaron886]

i have a better eye for comparing a real video to the actual game, than comparing the flight manual reports with it!

 

Instant tool cred. Fantastic. :megalol:

[GGTharos]

You're trying to compare an STR graph to ITR?...

 

So now you could see what the manual shows..., and the turn rate is much lower than what the airshow proved and that's mainly due to initial the conditions like height and weight for these charts..., and also due to the fact that an airshow plane will always be lighter than a combat ready plane..., as it may have it's cannon taken off, radar probably and having the nose left with only a lower weight ballast to not let the aircraft become too unstable, and various equipments which can be unload from the aircraft..., and that indeed serves for a greatly improved turn rate!

[Pyroflash]

You're trying to compare an STR graph to ITR?...

 

He doesn't use Graphs matey, he uses videos (because videos are more accurate than thousands of hours of flight testing). It only makes sense that he wouldn't know how to read/interpret one properly.

[aaron886]

I may recall incorrectly, but I recall seeing the F-18 turn rate charts showing as much as 50 deg/s ITR. Again, I may be recalling incorrectly.

 

You're probably thinking 50 degrees alpha, but that would be an easily attainable instantaneous pitch rate for the Hornet.

[Cedaway]

If a Lockheed Martin engineer would come here and show me that, i would trust him and also the video of an F-16 and i doubt that i'd find the gap that you're pointing at...:music_whistling:! Furthermore..., i already have the aerodynamic coefficient tables for the F-16 and guess what..., if you apply the corresponding coeffs in their corresponding formulas you would find the same G load of the aircraft for a given airspeed compared to an airshow demonstration, hence the turn rate! The only thing hard to control when you want to calculate these would be the variation of the CL and CD vs the continuously dropping airspeed, thus leading to a constantly dropping lift force, respectively turn rate..., so you may only talk about turn rate at a given condition in time, or simply to average the turn rate! And maybe that's what you've pointed at when you thought i'd say that the F-16 should have 15 deg/s instead of 20 by just watching a video! I know when and how these factors vary, so you'd be going nowhere by making fun of me!

 

Now why wouldn't the same things apply in Lock On? I don't know..., or should i call it G-loc On for whatever reason...!

 

 

Concerning High fidelity Flight Model for the F-16, there is a project in preparation, there. By CptSmiley and the VCR Team.

They accessed impressive collection of real data charts to create their EFM. So just wait. Pinnacle of simming is accessible and partly already there with DCS BS, A-10c and P-51. Other projects like DCS Mig-21bis by Beczl is incoming and as you can see in the forum, initiatives are multiplying.

We just need to have patience. "A watched pot never boils"

And, as this thread is about FC3, just have the expectation of what FC3 can provides you.

Don't forget the differences between:

- LockOn FC (1,2 & 3) integrated in DCS-World and

- Appart aircraft modules for DCS-World that have improved realism and accuracy in Flight models, full 6DOF viewing, avionics, simulated hydraulics, electrics,...

 

If you want to go deeper in realism, look for Module for DCS, like A-10c for example or another upcoming projects :smilewink:

Edited November 8, 2012 by Cedaway

[Raised_Dead85]

Did I ever mentions that you guys talk too much? :D:D:D:D:D

[Milene]

Blablabla is it out yet?

[falcon_120]

guess what..., if you apply the corresponding coeffs in their corresponding formulas you would find the same G load of the aircraft for a given airspeed compared to an airshow demonstration, hence the turn rate! The only thing hard to control when you want to calculate these would be the variation of the CL and CD vs the continuously dropping airspeed, thus leading to a constantly dropping lift force, respectively turn rate..., so you may only talk about turn rate at a given condition in time, or simply to average the turn rate!

 

Off course you'll get the turn rate because ....YOU ARE NOT DOING IT WITH YOUR EYES OR FEELINGS ABOUT

A VIDEO but with real data charts,with coeffs ,etc THIS IS WHAT WE ARE ASKING YOU ;).

If you get some real data that backup your thoughts,that's alright and we would all love a better simulation,

if some FM is proven wrong I also want it corrected,but not with your first argument 2 pages ago :).

[159th_Viper]

Blablabla is it out yet?

 

Not yet........Somebody on the Internet is wrong :music_whistling:

[ALDEGA]

[Squid]

blah blah blah Crossfire support?

[MemphisBelle]

blah blah blah Crossfire support?

 

I think this is the most derailed thread here... Thumbs up for those who agree...:doh: forgot...this is no youtube :D:D

Edited November 8, 2012 by MemphisBelle