IonicRipper Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) While reading the Ka-50 manual I learnt for the first time about vortex ring state (I'm completely new to helos.) Keeping this in mind, is it possible to hide behind trees/buildings, pop up to fire a few missiles and quickly hide down again? Does this phenomenon affect this technique at all? Or is this tactic not even used by Black Shark pilots? Edited February 2, 2013 by IonicRipper i5 4590 @ 3.77GHz | GTX 1060 6GB | 16GB 1600MHz DDR3 | 1TB HDD+500GB HDD | Win10 Home X64 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Daniel M Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Keep your sink rate above 3 m/s and youll be good. Most of the time you ll out range the target any way.
Pizzicato Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 The unfortunate truth is that trees and buildings don't affect enemy line of sight, so you can't use them to mask yourself. It's still worth learning about vortex ring states and getting a feel for the signs of it, though. Even the experienced guys will occasionally get caught out by it. i7-7700K @ 4.9Ghz | 16Gb DDR4 @ 3200Mhz | MSI Z270 Gaming M7 | MSI GeForce GTX 1080ti Gaming X | Win 10 Home | Thrustmaster Warthog | MFG Crosswind pedals | Oculus Rift S
EvilBivol-1 Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 While it's true that trees are transparent to AI, buildings are not, so they should as cover. - EB [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer. The Parable of Jane's A-10 Forum Rules
IonicRipper Posted February 2, 2013 Author Posted February 2, 2013 Too bad for the trees. Hopefully they will implement this in a future patch. Does staying at very low altitude help in any way against being spotted/locked? i5 4590 @ 3.77GHz | GTX 1060 6GB | 16GB 1600MHz DDR3 | 1TB HDD+500GB HDD | Win10 Home X64 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
YeaImRota Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Too bad for the trees. Hopefully they will implement this in a future patch. Does staying at very low altitude help in any way against being spotted/locked? It helps if you use the terrain to mask your helicopter from enemy defenses. Also, being extremely low over water makes it hard for radar to lock you. http://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit Hoggit 1st Fighter Wing Weekly training missions on Tuesday nights, missions on Saturdays! TS3: hoggit.us
Ich666 Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Keep your sink rate above 3 m/s and youll be good. Most of the time you ll out range the target any way. Shouldnt that be "below"?
Suchacz Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Shouldnt that be "below"? It's a matter of your point of view :smilewink: Sink rate should be written "-3m/s". Anything "below" this number means higher sink rate. For example -4m/s. :smartass: Per aspera ad astra! Crucial reading about DCS: Black Shark - Black Shark and Coaxial Rotor Aerodynamics, Black Shark and the Trimmer, Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 1, Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 2
HugePanic Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 by the way: if you feel that you are in a vortex-ring-state, try to move your position over ground. i usually break hard to left or right....
IonicRipper Posted February 2, 2013 Author Posted February 2, 2013 They say to get out of a vortex ring, you have to pitch forward to get out of it. But it doesn't absolutely have to be forward, right? You just have to move out of it regardless of the direction? i5 4590 @ 3.77GHz | GTX 1060 6GB | 16GB 1600MHz DDR3 | 1TB HDD+500GB HDD | Win10 Home X64 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
JasBird Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Vortex Ring State means you sink in your on turbulent air. Only happens in a hover or slow airspeed. To get out of it gain speed to move in to "clean" air. Basically you loose lift and stall the rotor blades, so it's advised to lower collective aswell. Raising the collective only stalls the rotor even more and worsen the situation.
roob Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 They say to get out of a vortex ring, you have to pitch forward to get out of it. But it doesn't absolutely have to be forward, right? You just have to move out of it regardless of the direction? Yes, you just have to get out of the "storm", but due to chopper design the best choice is often forward. My DCS stream [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Past broadcasts, Highlights Currently too much to do... But watch and (maybe) learn something :)
Suchacz Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) You need to get some horizontal speed, no mater what direction. IMHO to pitch your nose down is the best way to get some. Simply you need to get out of that vortex trap. Pulling collective will only make it worst, so dont move it, or push it down. If you want to recover from vortex ring, you must have sufficient height over the ground, or you are doomed... :D Edited February 2, 2013 by Suchacz Per aspera ad astra! Crucial reading about DCS: Black Shark - Black Shark and Coaxial Rotor Aerodynamics, Black Shark and the Trimmer, Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 1, Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 2
IonicRipper Posted February 2, 2013 Author Posted February 2, 2013 ^ Good thing the Ka has an ejection seat :) i5 4590 @ 3.77GHz | GTX 1060 6GB | 16GB 1600MHz DDR3 | 1TB HDD+500GB HDD | Win10 Home X64 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
roob Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 ^ Good thing the Ka has an ejection seat :) ...and a ;) (as has been mentioned) My DCS stream [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Past broadcasts, Highlights Currently too much to do... But watch and (maybe) learn something :)
Headspace Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 They say to get out of a vortex ring, you have to pitch forward to get out of it. But it doesn't absolutely have to be forward, right? You just have to move out of it regardless of the direction? Right. Consider a tandem-rotor helicopter (Chinook, for example). Sideways is the only way out, since forward or back puts one rotor into the other rotor's vortex.
Dejjvid Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 You only have to get out of your own downwash. Once you are in undisturbed air you're fine. i7 8700K | GTX 1080 Ti | 32GB RAM | 500GB M.2 SSD | TIR5 w/ Trackclip Pro | TM Hotas Warthog | Saitek Pro Flight Rudder [sigpic]http://www.132virtualwing.org[/sigpic]
Darkwolf Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) Hi Leadbird, The technic of poopping out of trees like in EECH is mostly useless as for nowin DCS. First thing is : Tree don't block LOS - Line Of Sight-, and don't block anything at all, so you could be hidden by trees and receive a well aimed ATGM in your head, that would have gone thru 1km of forest without hitting anything. Method works only with towns, where houses block LOS. Beside this , they is the Vortex Ring Effect you mention. Once you pop, shot, guide your missile, you may be shot at, and most of the time getting back quickly down to your cover will have you entering Vortex Ring and crash, or if you are carefull to not reach -5m/s you'll be too slow and just end up with a missile stuck in your cockpit. Ctrl E..... Ctrl E..... Ctrl E..... The method i'm using now is to circle over the Forward Edge of Battle - Shooting whatever I can see from maximum range. If my Laser Warning System start to blink like a christmas tree, i immediately step turn with the rudder to get back in safe zone, then when i got enough distance to engage again, make another run. No vortex Ring with method. Edited February 3, 2013 by Darkwolf [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] PC simulator news site. Also....Join the largest DCS community on Facebook :pilotfly:
Ich666 Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Beside this , they is the Vortex Ring Effect you mention. Once you pop, shot, guide your missile, you may be shot at, and most of the time getting back quickly down to your cover will have you entering Vortex Ring and crash, or if you are carefull to not reach -5m/s you'll be too slow and just end up with a missile stuck in your cockpit. Thats what the Descent mode of the Autopilot is for ;)
JasBird Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Might be and idea to set visibilty range for trees to 0 then, to save framerate? No point in having them blocking your view if they don't block enemies view. I guess that also means you don't crash when flying through trees? Been a while since I played, needed a computer upgrade, but I always try and position myself behind a hill and move out to the side and get a shot in and then sideways back in for cover. Feel so "naked" when popping up behind a hill :)
ShuRugal Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Right. Consider a tandem-rotor helicopter (Chinook, for example). Sideways is the only way out, since forward or back puts one rotor into the other rotor's vortex. This is incorrect. in a tandem rotor helicopter, pitching fore and aft is accomplished through varying collective input. if a tandem rotor enters VRS, accelerating forward is impossible as pitching control is lost. 1
IonicRipper Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 Thats what the Descent mode of the Autopilot is for ;) Haven't thought of that. That might work. But then, trees are useless so i might not even use the technique after all. i5 4590 @ 3.77GHz | GTX 1060 6GB | 16GB 1600MHz DDR3 | 1TB HDD+500GB HDD | Win10 Home X64 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Bushmanni Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Currently the AI has super fast spotting ability so you can't surprise them by popping up behind treeline anyway. They will spot you the moment you unmask and they will start shooting as soon as their guns point at you, which leaves no time to shoot at them. The only way is to stay back at stand-off range. DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community -------------------------------------------------- SF Squadron
Darkwolf Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Thats what the Descent mode of the Autopilot is for I'm not an Autopilot big enthousiast. Everytime i set AP on, it gives me the impression i have the time to run the kitchen to grab a coffee, and everytime i'm back, my airplane is no more than burning ashes.So i'm not aware of all function yet :) Might be and idea to set visibilty range for trees to 0 then, to save framerate? No point in having them blocking your view if they don't block enemies view. I guess that also means you don't crash when flying through trees? No, you don't crashes on tree. Removing the forest is an option, yet that will make world looking ugly. Just use hills and town for cover. Hiding behind a building can be compared as "taking hostages".... Well - it's a videos game, dead civilians will respawn at next game crash. :P [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] PC simulator news site. Also....Join the largest DCS community on Facebook :pilotfly:
ShuRugal Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 I'm not an Autopilot big enthousiast. Everytime i set AP on, it gives me the impression i have the time to run the kitchen to grab a coffee, and everytime i'm back, my airplane is no more than burning ashes.So i'm not aware of all function yet Autopilot will go where you tell it to, how fast you tell it to, and at what altitude you tell it to, but no more. It doesn't know where the hills are, it always takes straight lines to waypoints, and doesn't afraid of anything. the purpose of autopilot in the KA-50 is to reduce pilot workload required to fly the aircraft and allow instead to focus on fighting the aircraft. you still need eyes outside the cockpit so you don't smack into any mountains.
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