Aircraft Visibility

[PFunk1606688187]

as for the rest... please don't put words into people's mouths

 

Then kindly articulate a whole thought and don't leave it open to interpretation.

 

Cheers :smilewink:

[Wolf Rider]

@Pfunk...

 

Could you be clearer on what you mean by "Then kindly articulate a whole thought and don't leave it open to interpretation.

"?

[Haukka81]

This sim needs better dot system, or labels that will be taken from host so all players are in same line in multiplayer (and they can't be seen trough clouds etc)

 

Period. There is nothing more to say for that.

Fanboys can argue all day long but it wont change fact that without labes it's now like blind paraolympics in air.

 

Even best monitors can't help it out.

[GGTharos]

You can argue all day but you can't change the fact that we've had pilots telling us that a properly painted vehicle is something you will not see until you're flying more or less on top of it. Dots? What dots? We had 'dots' back in LO, and it made the vehicles complete sitting ducks. You didn't really have to search for them at all, there was no need for a pod or anything.

 

There's a reason why all these pods and other fun things have been invented and are implemented in RL.

 

This sim needs better dot system, or labels that will be taken from host so all players are in same line in multiplayer (and they can't be seen trough clouds etc)

 

Period. There is nothing more to say for that.

Fanboys can argue all day long but it wont change fact that without labes it's now like blind paraolympics in air.

 

Even best monitors can't help it out.

[PFunk1606688187]

@Pfunk...

 

Could you be clearer on what you mean by "Then kindly articulate a whole thought and don't leave it open to interpretation.

"?

 

Open ended statement about the dot not removing all complaints about not seeing stuff invites people inferring something from your statement.

 

Or to put it another way, what exactly was the point of that? It didn't really apply to the conversation where we discuss how the sim fails to cope with the empirical limitations of the screen and pixels and how options exist to ameliorate this. Instead your comment was aimlessly contrary. A sort of "whats the point" kind of comment, or thats how it came off.

 

Basically it sounded like you said "why bother, people are never happy" or something.

Edited April 14, 2014 by P*Funk

[Haukka81]

You can argue all day but you can't change the fact that we've had pilots telling us that a properly painted vehicle is something you will not see until you're flying more or less on top of it. Dots? What dots? We had 'dots' back in LO, and it made the vehicles complete sitting ducks. You didn't really have to search for them at all, there was no need for a pod or anything.

 

There's a reason why all these pods and other fun things have been invented and are implemented in RL.

 

Maybe, but in RL we still see planes etc.. better than in current dcs world

 

Problem is that even tank or plane painted in red is hard to see in dcs, sure you can zoom in but then you have soda stream style fov.. thats not real too :(

 

 

Tell us how that is realistic ? no pod can change that fact that we cant see even close what we can see in real life WHEN using MARK ONE EYEBALL .

 

And stupid ground AI was reason why ground units were sitting ducks in LOMAC

 

Don't tell paintings and colors...

 

 

oh, and its easy to test: put red firetruck in tarmac in dcs, then try to spot it from far without zooming 5deg fov ;) In real life i can spot firetruck in tarmac WAYYY longer distance than ever in dcs.. so tell us why there is no need to compensate low res of monitors (even 4k is low)

'

 

 

-haukka81

Edited April 14, 2014 by Haukka81

[Wolf Rider]

@ P*Funk...

 

Could you clarify "Open ended statement about the dot not removing all complaints about not seeing stuff invites people inferring something from your statement." as I don't understand just what it is you're trying to communicate there?

[GGTharos]

Please tell me how your version of things compensates for military vehicles that are supposedly in hiding, because quite frankly until there is a way to completely simulate the visual aspect of this I don't really care about road traffic or fire trucks. :)

 

oh, and its easy to test: put red firetruck in tarmac in dcs, then try to spot it from far without zooming 5deg fov ;) In real life i can spot firetruck in tarmac WAYYY longer distance than ever in dcs.. so tell us why there is no need to compensate low res of monitors (even 4k is low)

[Haukka81]

Please tell me how your version of things compensates for military vehicles that are supposedly in hiding, because quite frankly until there is a way to completely simulate the visual aspect of this I don't really care about road traffic or fire trucks. :)

 

Well , you just always come with new exuses, now they are hiding. Maybe it's better get them smart so they will hide. now they "hide" only because they are not drawn very far if your fov is even somewhat close to real life :music_whistling:

 

 

And even if you don't use red firetruck it's still hard to spot tank in runway.. if you are so smart why you don't tell us how thats realistic ?

 

But fine, its your sim and you set the rules.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Haukka81

[Wolf Rider]

part of the problem, and only part of the problem haukka, is that a monitor is only a two dimensional surface onto which a three dimensional image is, basically, being projected onto and that screen is a fixed size... you could get to real life like view by using a narrow FoV but then, as you seem to understand already, is like flying in tunnel vision. There's no chance of any situational aware like event in the sim when using a narrow FoV, no simulated periphperal vision, so now to use a larger FoV to simulate that - what happens then is the image on screen starts doing a bowl effect (just like looking into the bottom of a bowl), it distorts because there is now more image to get onto that same size screen you were using for the narrow FoV. It needs to understood though, the sim is designed to a default medium FoV and moving to a narrower FoV, or to a wider FoV from the default is where the bowl like distortions come from... going narrow flattens the bowl and going wider deepens the bowl.

 

 

the other, is this nasty nasty thing called "camouflage"... camouflaged things are meant to be hard to see. Why? because it makes them harder to blow up.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Wolf Rider

[NineLine]

Maybe, but in RL we still see planes etc.. better than in current dcs world

 

Resolution of real life and graphics processor between your ears is a little better than what is currently offered for puters.

[MBot]

Resolution of real life and graphics processor between your ears is a little better than what is currently offered for puters.

 

So you think the game should not adjust for that?

[karambiatos]

Resolution of real life and graphics processor between your ears is a little better than what is currently offered for puters.

a little?

 

the eye has a resolution equivalent to 576mega pixels.

[Wolf Rider]

So you think the game should not adjust for that?

 

just curious here, but what would you have the sim do?

[Haukka81]

Resolution of real life and graphics processor between your ears is a little better than what is currently offered for puters.

 

Really, i know that. But thas why we must compensate our view in sims, dot's,labes or some other thing's :)

[NineLine]

a little?

 

the eye has a resolution equivalent to 576mega pixels.

 

So you think the game should not adjust for that?

 

I think that there is things that can be done to improve this with EDGE, I dont see them investing a lot of time in this until then. That said, it will never be like real life, but with practice you can improve your spotting ability, I run a mission from time to time that spawns three tanks in a forrest area, in random positions, and I just orbit and try and spot them. I cant always, but its a good exercise. Its similar to real world training A-10 pilots use to go through (dont know if they still do).

[NineLine]

Really, i know that. But thas why we must compensate our view in sims, dot's,labes or some other thing's :)

 

 

Of course, see my post above, I think ... hope there can be little tweaks that can be added through new effects with EDGE. But with in reason... as an example, I believe IL2:CloD has reflections off glass of cockpits that aids in spotting... that is just an example.

[Haukka81]

just curious here, but what would you have the sim do?

 

Are you Trolling or what ?

 

 

Maybe draw faraway objects as black or grey (fighters) or green (tank's , etc..) DOT's.

 

Or use somekind scaling (like in old sims)

 

 

 

But maybe edge will bring something to this.

[GGTharos]

Because you probably wouldn't find a tank on a runway? :D

 

The excuses are all yours here. Military vehicles are always attempting to hide, through simple virtue of camouflage. You can fly by a stationary tank and not see it until you're 3000' away. That's with your awesome eyeball mk1 and processor between your ears, and it has nothing to do with AI smarts or real life smarts.

Making AI know how to hide is very difficult. Even those sims that do accomplish that feat have a big limitation on how/why this can be achieved - but again, that doesn't matter.

 

I hear a lot of 'wah I can't see targets' where in almost any but the most contrived of cases you should not be able to see - IMHO anyway - but I hear no ideas about how to deal with camouflage. You mentioned green/grey dots which is great and all, but did you know that those already cause planes to vanish at 'unrealistic distances'? Because it really does happen in-game. So, what's the next solution? What you want is a band-aid where what's needed is really far more complicated.

 

And even if you don't use red firetruck it's still hard to spot tank in runway.. if you are so smart why you don't tell us how thats realistic ?

Edited April 14, 2014 by GGTharos

[Wolf Rider]

@ haukka...

 

sheesh, settle down sport... I was asking for an honest opinion

[slowhand]

Back to OP,If it was EZ to find and Kill Stuff we would call it X BOX and everyone would have killed everything already. But we"re not so its a lil harder! Read the brief and Study your map then learn how to loiter on station out side the launch zone and do the pan and scan(also change your display to black hot and look for lil white dots) Also learn to keep you eyes outside the pit watch for smoke trails from Sam's,tracers from AAA,smoke from tracks kicking up the dirt and if your hunting convoys(most of the time there on the road so ck map for what road) it all takes time to learn and and when the radio says things like sam launch or bandit bearing what ever ..LOOK to see what this has to do with you.. this my two cents to the OP and i hope it helps:smartass::thumbup::music_whistling:

[MBot]

just curious here, but what would you have the sim do?

 

Draw some pixels minimum even if aircraft model is smaller than this amount of pixels. Scale this threshold amount of pixels acoording the camera FOV. Calibrate this threshold amount of pixels until average real world detection ranges are achieved in test (consistent across variable FOV settings).

[Wolf Rider]

A good thought there MBot, though some might see that solution as unrealistic... just sayin'

 

 

 

*iEDITin increasing the number of LoD layers (if that is the correct way to put it) might help too

Edited April 14, 2014 by Wolf Rider

[NineLine]

Well before we do anything, we should ask an A-10 pilot how far away he can spot a tank, if he doesnt know where the tank is and if he does know where the tank is. Also, how often in a real world mission, the A-10 is sent in with so little intel that he has to search so hard. I think there is more issues with mission creation than anything. Perhaps there are issues with model LODs as well... but I think its a combination... graphic short comings and mission design.

[Wolf Rider]

and monitor technology as it exists currently