Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[GGTharos]

I've split this from the R-27 tracking thread, just FYI.

[GGTharos]

High altitude ballistic range for the AIM-7F is 57nm, which equates to about 105km. Maximum range for AIM-7F was constrained to 22nm against 2m^2 RCS targets by the seeker and no data-link.

 

AIM-7M gets around this by adding a data-link in the H block, IIRC, and a more sensitive seeker.

 

Yesterday I did a test against a F-15 with full Aim-7 payload and me with Full R-27ER. Same Speed, same altitud and I get a LA at 50km while the F-15 also get the LA at 50km. :helpsmilie:

[blkspade]

That's just it, you'd be assuming. I could assume that the true meaning of maximum effective range is just how far it will fly until it decelerates to the point where the control surfaces fail to be effective, or unable to pull a certain minimum G.

[pepin1234]

Would be great if you had any idea whatsoever of what 'maximum range' means. I'd like to know :)

 

Thats why you push to Rage to accept that we should countinue the debate to the " Maximum range ". :megalol: are you happy now??

 

The Maximum range is relative, off course. Yes I agree that the launched range is important for a god tracking/notch effect etc...

 

 

Your diagram have poor information about the R-27 Missiles, I mean is nothing there that say this diagram is about the R-27.

[GGTharos]

So in other words, you don't know, and you don't even have a clue as to what 'maximum range' means. See, it's actually a very technical term ... someone who knew the real answer would ask a particular question after they realized that you're not looking for the generic 'it's relative' answer.

 

Thats why you push to Rage to accept that we should countinue the debate to the " Maximum range ". :megalol: are you happy now??

 

The Maximum range is relative, off course. Yes I agree that the launched range is important for a god tracking/notch effect etc...

 

This diagram comes from real life Su-27 weapons manual.

 

Your diagram have poor information about the R-27 Missiles, I mean is nothing there that say this diagram is about the R-27.

[GGTharos]

Right, exactly. And just because you assumed that the technical format is this or that doesn't mean you have a useful answer since you don't know when the control surfaces become ineffective, and you don't know what they assume the missile or target g to be at that range.

 

That's just it, you'd be assuming. I could assume that the true meaning of maximum effective range is just how far it will fly until it decelerates to the point where the control surfaces fail to be effective, or unable to pull a certain minimum G.

[*Rage*]

The AIM-7 is just as vulnerable to chaff as the R-27s are. They are pretty much always apart of my loadout, so I use them a lot. Many times I've watched them fail to guide right off the rail, at ranges under 10nm. At the same time I've watched the smoke trail of ERs fired at me continue to guide when I'm trying to notch. Really though all the radar missiles can be chaff decoyed fairly easily in the right scenario, even when it doesn't seem logical. The is some particular 'magic' angle where actives will miss at close range (~7nm), head-on aspect while looking up. No jamming either.

 

They may be. But anecdotal evidence is no good. In my line of work you'd be laughed out the room. Do the same as I have and conduct a test. Post sequential tracks where the only variable within reason is chaff and we will see.

[Wayc00lio]

It might have a range of 28 miles in perfect conditions on a head on shot with everyone flying head on with no jinking but that's not to say it has a PK value of any worth at that range.......

[NineLine]

Here is a bunch of stuff... http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html#Vympel_R-27__AA-10_Alamo

 

I dont know if anything is relevant, I just like watching GG fire forum missiles at everyone :)

[*Rage*]

I've seen 120's quit tracking because they felt like it against non-chaffing, head-on targets for example. While less obnoxious than R-27's not tracking at all, the point is that everything is affected.

 

Im afraid that falls into the anecdotal evidence pile as well. I've proven the pTrack of the 27R/ER is 30% in conditions where it should be closer to 100%. If someone would like to conduct a similar test with AIM7s and 120s i'd be interested in the result. It may also help ED/Devs...

[*Rage*]

Thanks for the reports, the devs will be looking into it like always.

 

Thanks for forwarding to them. I look forward to seeing what they do with it.

[GGTharos]

Not only is it irrelevant, it's useless. The author of that site deliberately doubles or otherwise exaggerates russian missile ranges. He might give a hint of truth to disguise his misdirection, and generally speaking he panders to his agenda of 'buy F-22'. ;)

[NineLine]

Not only is it irrelevant, it's useless. The author of that site deliberately doubles or otherwise exaggerates russian missile ranges.

 

But it had colorful animated graphs, what is more relevant than that ;)

 

That said, the author did supply references at the bottom, I would look deeper, but I am knee deep in German, I dont want to stare at Russian right now :)

Edited May 24, 2013 by NineLine

[GGTharos]

It's not what so much as when. They were reasonably tuned in FC2, and something happened to break all that up in FC3. I don't know if there's parts of the algorithm that is sensitive to velocity changes of the missile since I can't see it, but to my knowledge the guidance/ECCM has not been touched at all.

[pepin1234]

If you agree with my analysis can this be escalated to ED?

 

Of course I agree with you. But this is not all, also the missile range launched and the speed and the track lost when notch at -15 km.

 

Yesterday I did a test against a F-15 with full Aim-7 payload and me with Full R-27ER. Same Speed, same altitud and I get a LA at 50km while the F-15 also get the LA at 50km. The first Missile missed, because Chaff, the second get in notch when I was only 14 km:doh: with a good lock. the third was launched at the same time of the next Aim-7, I dispence some chaff but we were Close enough, then the Aim-7 got me first, even when I dispence my chaff too. :helpsmilie:

 

The 27R/ER family is the only BVR missile available for the russian birds

 

Yes, you right. Actually the R-27R/ER is the only BVR. Now with the Mig-29S we are forced to carry two of the ER using the R-77 to finish in short range shot. All of them with a poor performance with chaff countermeasures

Edited May 24, 2013 by pepin1234

[IASGATG]

Mastiff. Shoot one at 40,000' at Mach 2 in a straight line and see how far it goes.

[karambiatos]

rage could you please upload your mission on the forums so i can edit it around

[Nealius]

...is it just me or do the AIM-9L and -9M look exactly the same?

[GGTharos]

No, the missiles are being worked on by ED. In case I have to make it more clear, side-projects don't matter if they don't make it into the main release.

 

And by the way, it's great that some people have time and willingness to spend on this especially when they have access and experience with particular tools, I'm sure it'll help. They just don't happen to have to program the rest of the game at the same time.

 

PS: Plenty of engineers within ED.

 

The missiles are being worked on anyway, by a crew that is not part of ED. By Engineers non the less...

[*Rage*]

It's not what so much as when. They were reasonably tuned in FC2, and something happened to break all that up in FC3. I don't know if there's parts of the algorithm that is sensitive to velocity changes of the missile since I can't see it, but to my knowledge the guidance/ECCM has not been touched at all.

 

Seems strange that something in AFM broke guidance! Im kinda hoping at least for an interim fix since BVR has become something of a pointless endeavour at the moment.

[GGTharos]

I don't think it's too strange, or at least I can think of ways in which it isn't :)

[71st_Mastiff]

well I'm in a A10A with AIM 9m, I press Key#6 I get the little circle for the aim9 to get a lock head on, rear or side shot. I can never get the Hind24; aim9 lock tone until I'm 200 meters away.

 

The AI seems to lock them from at least 1.5 nm away..

I will post a track.

 

:joystick:

 

and thanks for moving my questing I could not find this thread late last night.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Mastiff

[71st_Mastiff]

Im really enjoying this 167 release as now I'm getting

19 miles of pure lock on an launch cues for 120c's

Now.

Of course as always the sparrow sucks. Its so easily

Loses the target.

 

The aim9 is now good too. Thank you guys your almost to

home plate.

[Shein]

Me too! ironically, I wasn't at all excited for this patch because none of the fixes were things that were bothering me. I thought if the missiles were tuned, it would be mentioned... but apparently w/o mention, the missiles were tuned and are much better! The Amraam finally feels like it did in FC2. It bleeds airspeed much slower than before.

The R-27 IMO still seems a bit ineffective... more testing is needed!

Just wanted to post and say THANKS ED FOR CONTINUING WORK ON THE MISSILES !!!!!

[Shein]

On the other hand, the R-27 family doesn't appear to want to track at all... none of the missiles I fire seem to go after their target. Both ER and ET versions...