Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[volk]

Let's say that in general we agree and leave things there for now.

Согласиться с текущим положением вещей, я правильно понял? Это невозможно и неприемлемо, т. к. Р-27Р (ЭР) является единственной ракетой с радиолокационным наведением двух самолетов в игре - Су-27 и Су-33. У F-15, кроме AIM-7, есть еще AIM-120, МиГ-29 несет Р-77, а у Су-27/33 - только Р-27. Стойкость Р/ЭР к дипольным отражателям должна быть пересмотрена, а возможно не только для Р-27, но и для и всех ракет. Наверное, есть смысл вернуться к параметрам, заложенным в Горячих Скалах 2 для всех ракет.

В документации ясно сказано, что в РГС-27 приняты методы защиты от дипольных отражателей. Это должно быть отражено в игре.

[*Rage*]

Anecdotal testing (too tired to formally test and report tonight) suggests the 27R is just as if not more useless.

 

Formal tracks to follow but it seems the 27R/ER family is wasted on chaff.

[Pilotasso]

Take the time and come back when more fixing has been done. :)

[GGTharos]

No, my opinion is that there is a lot more that needs to be done to simulate counter-measure rejection properly.

 

While newer missiles like AIM-120B/C and R-77 should not be sensitive to chaff, they should be sensitive to chaff+jammer for example. Older missiles should be sensitive to chaff, and have a lot of problems with chaff+jammer.

 

But more importantly, the above distinctions are meaningless because the simulation cannot handle them. First the rejection of chaff (and flares also) must be more realistically modeled (so for example no sensitivity to chaff anywhere outside of the 3-9 line, unless for very old missiles. For heat seekers the radiation curve for aircraft heat should be more accurately modeled than just three values of idle/max/abfterburner + aspect).

 

Согласиться с текущим положением вещей, я правильно понял? Это невозможно и неприемлемо, т. к. Р-27Р (ЭР) является единственной ракетой с радиолокационным наведением двух самолетов в игре - Су-27 и Су-33. У F-15, кроме AIM-7, есть еще AIM-120, МиГ-29 несет Р-77, а у Су-27/33 - только Р-27. Стойкость Р/ЭР к дипольным отражателям должна быть пересмотрена, а возможно не только для Р-27, но и для и всех ракет. Наверное, есть смысл вернуться к параметрам, заложенным в Горячих Скалах 2 для всех ракет.

В документации ясно сказано, что в РГС-27 приняты методы защиты от дипольных отражателей. Это должно быть отражено в игре.

[71st_Mastiff]

Aim 7 Sparrow AIM9L

 

:joystick:So whos right us or them?

[falcon_120]

I don't get what you mean. As stated several times range is a function of several variables,

and give a unique number is both unrepresentative and innacurate if not is accompanied by the conditions at which that number applies.

Not to mention that exact ranges are classified,that number is a rough estimation.

[*Rage*]

R testing

 

As requested, testing the 27R. Same as before except 2 missile volleys are launched at closer ranges.

 

To recap.

-2 missiles launched at ~20km range

-Angels 6.5-7

-Further 2 missile volley launched much closer in if first volley fails

 

At all times lock is maintained. Target is above launch platform and not in the notch

 

5 tracks with chaff. 5 without.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fwpsjgnsubl1yd8/uQIA-A6bxk

 

Testing with target chaffing

R1 - 2 launches - 2 missiles track

R2 - 4 launches - 3 missiles go for chaff, 1 tracks

R3 - 2 launches - 1 missile goes for chaff 1 tracks (ignore last 2 launches)

R4 - 4 launches - 3 missiles go for chaff, 1 tracks

R5 - 4 launches - 4 missiles go for chaff

 

16 missiles launched

- 5 track

- 11 missguide to chaff for no good reason

Testing with target Not chaffing

R6-10 NO CHAFF - 4 missiles launched in each volley. ALL TRACK. Most run out of energy as target turns and runs without chaff.

 

My conclusion

The R is equally affected. pTrack(TM Rage) falls to 31% due to chaff when the chaff should be ineffectual. If you watch the tracks/tacviews some of the missile detours when it misstracks are quite spectacular. Otherwise its dead off the rails.

 

The 27R/ER family is the only BVR missile available for the russian birds, and in its current state is fairly useless. If you agree with my analysis can this be escalated to ED?

Edited May 24, 2013 by ///Rage

[159th_Viper]

Right in what sense?

[MoGas]

:huh:

[karambiatos]

your link, it doesnt work

[Yellonet]

The encyclopedia states 45 km for range, and that is approximately 28 miles. So... huh?!?

[*Rage*]

Links corrected.

[pepin1234]

Missile Range Discussion

 

Do you think the R-27 missile family is downgraded and the range is so poor?

Edited May 24, 2013 by pepin1234

[ralfidude]

The missiles are being worked on anyway, by a crew that is not part of ED. By Engineers non the less...

[159th_Viper]

. Same Speed, same altitud and I get a LA at 50km....

 

And?

 

Where's the problem, keeping in mind that the ER has an absolute max range of 60km? Without knowing your speed/altitude, 50km may very well be correct in your particular circumstances.

[159th_Viper]

Apologies - correction to range above: Absolute max range of 66km for ER at 10 000m.

Edited May 24, 2013 by 159th_Viper

[pepin1234]

Apologies - correction to range above: Absolute max range of 66km for ER at 10 000m.

 

 

please could you share the info to read that the range is only 66km at 10 000m.

 

Maybe is this one ?? ( this range info is against a fighter, fighter means high maneuverability ). Take a look, there is no bigs differences between the R-27R:

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/527/?PHPSESSID=fe50b0c7ffa10f5de681099978de74ef

 

PD: Also will be great you share with us the official info about the Aim-7 and the Aim-120 against a fighter

[159th_Viper]

please could you share the info to read that the range is only 66km at 10 000m.

 

SU-27 Weapons Delivery Manual. No, I do not have a copy to link to, you are just going to have to take my word for it.

 

Regarding US missiles, no authoritative idea.

[*Rage*]

This thread IS ABOUT TRACKING/GUIDANCE of the R/RE. Please dont dilute or derail the thread.

[blkspade]

The AIM-7 is just as vulnerable to chaff as the R-27s are. They are pretty much always apart of my loadout, so I use them a lot. Many times I've watched them fail to guide right off the rail, at ranges under 10nm. At the same time I've watched the smoke trail of ERs fired at me continue to guide when I'm trying to notch. Really though all the radar missiles can be chaff decoyed fairly easily in the right scenario, even when it doesn't seem logical. The is some particular 'magic' angle where actives will miss at close range (~7nm), head-on aspect while looking up. No jamming either.

 

Speaking of jamming as mentioned earlier in this thread, that it should complicate guidance even inside what we've deemed as burn-through. However in case where I even bother to use it, I'm still in the practice of turning it off since FC2 due to the behavior of missiles (SARH) continuing to track the jammer even after the host craft has broken lock.

[GGTharos]

It's about tracking/guidance of every radar (and maybe other!) missile in the game, since they all use the same stuff.

I've seen 120's quit tracking because they felt like it against non-chaffing, head-on targets for example. While less obnoxious than R-27's not tracking at all, the point is that everything is affected.

 

Thanks for the reports, the devs will be looking into it like always.

 

This thread IS ABOUT TRACKING/GUIDANCE of the R/RE. Please dont dilute or derail the thread.

[GGTharos]

please could you share the info to read that the range is only 66km at 10 000m.

 

Maybe is this one ?? ( this range info is against a fighter, fighter means high maneuverability ). Take a look, there is no bigs differences between the R-27R:

 

Here's the range diagram for the R-27R.

 

 

I have the R-27ER as well (but not handy), which Viper has seen and what he is telling you is correct. Against very high and fast targets like SR-71 or B-70 the range is about 90km.

 

Can you even explain what it means to say 'x km against a fighter'?

 

PD: Also will be great you share with us the official info about the Aim-7 and the Aim-120 against a fighter

Would be great if you had any idea whatsoever of what 'maximum range' means. I'd like to know :)

[blkspade]

Would be great if you had any idea whatsoever of what 'maximum range' means. I'd like to know :)

 

What I find most annoying is when trying to acquire such info, the spec is usually listed as "Maximum effective range at altitude", but never given what this altitude requirement is. That without any mention of launching craft airspeed. Is it the combat ceiling?

[GGTharos]

No, it isn't the combat ceiling. It's the 'average use case', or so you can assume, or it can be an extreme use case.

 

There are resources that will give you a much better guess (eg. naval documents list AMRAAM as 35nm+, reccomend attacking from 20nm - fair guess that we're talking about launches from a 0.9M 20000' hornet here - BUT, this is unclass stuff, so you can't be sure).

 

Knowing the range doesn't tell you anything anyway.

[RIPTIDE]

What I find most annoying is when trying to acquire such info, the spec is usually listed as "Maximum effective range at altitude", but never given what this altitude requirement is. That without any mention of launching craft airspeed. Is it the combat ceiling?

Yeah. "Brochure Range" :D