Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[Pyroflash]

But it had colorful animated graphs, what is more relevant than that ;)

 

That said, the author did supply references at the bottom, I would look deeper, but I am knee deep in German, I dont want to stare at Russian right now :)

 

That's the thing. He uses those references for the true parts of his statements, whilst deliberately distorting the same facts to make his point stand out more. That's why it's so effective; It isn't all lies. At times, however, it is impossible to read between the lines, so it is better just to not pay his works any real attention unless you have previous background information/experience.

 

That isn't to say all of it is misdirection. His peer edited pieces (EDITED, not REVIEWED) (f.e. Tracking RADAR section in Merill Skolnik's RADAR Handbook 3rd edition) are actually quite informative. Just watch out for anything on his site. Most of it is unreliable information.

[Bolt-1]

No, the missiles are being worked on by ED.

 

PS: Plenty of engineers within ED.

 

 

and still being worked on !!!

[*Rage*]

More testing with latest patch. No changes yet to ER tracking.

[ohmyflanker]

On the other hand, the R-27 family doesn't appear to want to track at all... none of the missiles I fire seem to go after their target. Both ER and ET versions...

 

Yes,R-27ER loses targets so easily that it's hit rate is extremly low,and thus I think the missile can hardly hit any targets but civil aircrafts in FC3.:(

Of course,all missiles appear to have a better AFM in FC3 than that in FC2.:thumbup:

Edited May 31, 2013 by ohmyflanker

[*Rage*]

Yes,R-27ER loses targets so easily that it's hit rate is extremly low,and thus I think the missile can hardly hit any targets but civil aircrafts in FC3.:(

Of course,all missiles appear to have a better AFM in FC3 than that in FC2.:thumbup:

 

The kinetics seem pretty good but the ER tracks awfully. Not all of is due to chaff it seems as well.

[pepin1234]

the last 3 updates have damage the performance of the russian missiles. Yesterday I was fighting with a F-15 and I shoot my first missile at 25 km ( this is the effective range right now ) the First, the second, the third missile, all were missed when the F-15 dispense some chaffs. The fourth was launched at 10 km and splash. I was lucky that the Fighter do not turn. If he turn, the fourth R-27 could miss too.

Edited June 3, 2013 by pepin1234

[Mandrake5]

Any joy in making the missiles less draggy? Getting a bit weary of sub-7nm engagements, missing the BVR chess game :(

[Ragnarok]

The main problem is that ED does not know how to determine the climbing rocket after launch. This important fact to manipulate perhaps the most important thing and that is timing missiles, and terminal velocity at maximum range. This is a radical change from those that are guided by data link and semi active, and IR... so with that a certain energy in level sea has a completely different proportions because the path is different.

Defining the maximum range is not a problem. The difference is only in the eastern and western reviewing.

[TaliG]

There is huge simulation of FC3 weaponery in general... I could not believe it befor I checked it myself... I am amazed. From a closer look on config\weapons, missiles_data.lua

you can clearly see why western misiles are more efective. All western missiles AIM-b,c aim-7

have a detonation fuse value of 15m though all russian missiles have a value of 11m.

This value looks like this''KillDistance = 15.0'' and it is located at the end of the simulated values for every weapon (missiles and bombs).

This is the reason that in exaxtly the same situation a western missile passing at lets say 14.5m away from the airframe will detonate and bring some damage to it (it will not destroy it complitly) and in the same situation the russian missiles will just fly by....

su27-su33 are huge airframes compared to migs, f16 and others...and this makes the ''missing'' effect even biger.

For SP perposes I realy aprisiate this simulated deferenses but for multiplayer its like cheeting.

I dont mean to have same values evrywhere in the simulated data to make all missiles equal.

I am talking only for this particular value (killdistance), and only in mp. for SP its more than ok for me.

 

By the way this is how I fixed the Kh25MPU BROCKEN missile aswel, have a look:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1807599#post1807599

[Exorcet]

There is huge simulation of FC3 weaponery in general... I could not believe it befor I checked it myself... I am amazed. From a closer look on config\weapons, missiles_data.lua

you can clearly see why western misiles are more efective. All western missiles AIM-b,c aim-7

have a detonation fuse value of 15m though all russian missiles have a value of 11m.

This value looks like this''KillDistance = 15.0'' and it is located at the end of the simulated values for every weapon (missiles and bombs).

This is the reason that in exaxtly the same situation a western missile passing at lets say 14.5m away from the airframe will detonate and bring some damage to it (it will not destroy it complitly) and in the same situation the russian missiles will just fly by....

su27-su33 are huge airframes compared to migs, f16 and others...and this makes the ''missing'' effect even biger.

For SP perposes I realy aprisiate this simulated deferenses but for multiplayer its like cheeting.

I dont mean to have same values evrywhere in the simulated data to make all missiles equal.

I am talking only for this particular value (killdistance), and only in mp. for SP its more than ok for me.

 

By the way this is how I fixed the Kh25MPU BROCKEN missile aswel, have a look:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1807599#post1807599

 

 

If you want to "fix" missiles to act a certain way, offer it as an option. Dumbing down the simulation should never be the default. MP should use what is most realistic, not what is most balanced.

[Ragnarok]

Look at file for warheads and you will be astonished and more. Simple warhead may be fit for R-24, R-40, but not for R27. R-27 has directional fragment warhead in real but in lock on it is equated with the old missiles R-24, R-40. AMRAAM has no remote activation warheads on 15m, but simple flight model allows the AMRAAM easily avoided with barrel roll. That's why it's better leave 15m, although it is not realistic because of flight model is not a realistic .

 

 

warheads["P_40T"] = simple_warhead(38.0);

warheads["P_40R"] = simple_warhead(38.0);

warheads["P_24R"] = simple_warhead(25.0);

warheads["P_24T"] = simple_warhead(25.0);

warheads["P_60"] = simple_warhead(3.5);

warheads["P_33E"] = simple_warhead(47.0);

warheads["P_27AE"] = simple_warhead(39.0);

warheads["P_27P"] = simple_warhead(39.0); this is problem

warheads["P_27PE"] = simple_warhead(39.0); this is problem

warheads["P_27T"] = simple_warhead(39.0); this is problem

warheads["P_27TE"] = simple_warhead(39.0); this is problem

warheads["P_27EM"] = simple_warhead(39.0); this is problem

warheads["P_73"] = enhanced_a2a_warhead(8.0); this is problem

warheads["P_77"] = directional_a2a_warhead(22.0);

warheads["P_37"] = simple_warhead(60.0);

warheads["AIM_7"] = enhanced_a2a_warhead(39.0); this is problem

warheads["AIM_9"] = enhanced_a2a_warhead(10.0); maybe is problem

warheads["AIM_9P"] = enhanced_a2a_warhead(11.0);

warheads["AIM_9X"] = directional_a2a_warhead(10.0);

warheads["AIM_54"] = simple_warhead(60.75);

warheads["AIM_120"] = directional_a2a_warhead(22.0);

warheads["AIM_120C"] = directional_a2a_warhead(22.0);

 

kill distance for R-27 series at 11m is not problem, they have low G!

Edited July 6, 2013 by Ragnarok

[TaliG]

Exorcet :

----If you want to "fix" missiles to act a certain way, offer it as an option. Dumbing down the simulation should never be the default. MP should use what is most realistic, not what is most balanced.----

 

 

 

 

I just explained the reason why in the same situatin a western misile will detonate and a russian will just pass by... I clearly stated in my first few lines that I realy love the simulation that was put on the weapons and I was very hapy about it...

 

the fix is for the kh25MPU and is definetly needed at this point because the missile is completely useless without it...you will clearly see why if you read my post on the other thred... here is for A-A missiles and I will not spam it with explanations for other kind of weapons.

Edited July 7, 2013 by TaliG

[GGTharos]

Look at file for warheads and you will be astonished and more.

 

And thanks to how the explosives code works barely any of that matters.

 

Simple warhead may be fit for R-24, R-40, but not for R27. R-27 has directional fragment warhead in real

 

No, it doesn't.

 

AMRAAM has no remote activation warheads on 15m

 

Yes, it does.

[volk]

Из РЛЭ МиГ-29 о ракете Р-27, стр. 186.

Боевая часть — стержневого типа, обеспечивает поражение воздушных целей на расстоянии до максимального радиуса раскрытия кольца (R = 11 м). Масса боевой части — 39 кг.

/В другом руководстве, по Су-27, указано значение 11,5 м/

AIM-7F:

 

[GGTharos]

What would be really interesting to see is fall off of lethality of the ring after it expands beyond its optimal size. Personally I believe if fragmentation was modeled in DCS, we would see longer-ranged damage in proximity detonations.

 

But for this to work properly, the fuzing logic must change - ie. the fuze must detonate when it detects some part of the plane, instead of the single, designated target location.

[Scing]

Missle Changes- What exactly has changed?

 

Downloading patch now. Also, first post!

 

Anyone detail the changes mentioned in the patch notes to missiles?

 

I have about a 40% kill ratio, as I'm still learning. Along with that learning, learning what changed with missiles so I can adjust my method of using them would be great!

[GGTharos]

The missiles were subject to a bug that caused them to lose track of the target, and/or go after countermeasures quite easily. Missiles should be a little more determined to do their target harm now.

[westr]

I've fired 4 Amraams at 2 targets 2 each in TWS mode but got 0 hits I had missile lock but not in the ideal range targets were Mig29a's is this normal just want to check its not just my download?

[GGTharos]

I have no idea. Why did the missiles miss?

[pepin1234]

I have no idea. Why did the missiles miss?

 

 

Wich Missiles and in what Situation??

 

I have tested the RU ones against the AI and I notice better reacction against Chaffs. One hit of two R-27, much better than before we had 4 miss of 4 shoot.

[westr]

I'm not sure i don't know if I'm doing something wrong. My altitude was about the same as the jets I'm intercepting my airspeed is good above 550kts I have ECM on I can see that the aircraft I'm intercepting are not within the ideal missile range line yet but if I wait for that they have already launched their missiles at me. But I have a missile lock I ripple four missiles of at two targets with the fire and forget Amraams and break off to start some evasion tactics but none of my missiles hit their target the mig's seem very good at evading this seems to happen a lot to me a lot more than FC2. If its just what everybody else experiences then ok perhaps it's something I need to get used to just wanted to make sure it's not my DCS World...

[westr]

Sorry if I didn't make that clear it was flying the F15c against two Mig29A's

[Svend_Dellepude]

You have to keep the target bugged until the missile goes active. If you break off as soon as you fire you probably just loose the missile unless you are very close (10 nm or so).

There is a timer in the lower right of the HUD counting down to the missile goes active and another one next to, counting down to impact.

[159th_Viper]

....But I have a missile lock I ripple four missiles of at two targets ....

 

Spamming or rippling means that if one misses they'll all miss.

 

 

.... the fire and forget Amraams and break off to start some evasion tactics....

 

I'm no budgie-pilot but does launch not have to be supported until seeker goes active?

 

Edit: Norrised by Sven

[westr]

Ok I see what you guys are saying. I am pretty close range but perhaps thats my problem I shall take what your saying on board and check to make sure the missiles have gone active. I'll have another look at the manual and have another go at it!...

Thanks....