F-18 grip, WARTHOG compatible

[Beeroshima]

Cant wait til some of your stuff is available to order. Keep going! Part of every success story is the part where the owner didnt listen to the people saying it couldnt be done!

 

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

[Viersbovsky]

To be quite honest, I am not that interested in grips for individual planes.

 

The problem: They are way too specific for a plane. I like to fly all kinds of planes - sometimes I like to do a bit of WW2 dogfighting, sometimes I like to fly the MIG21. Sometimes I do a bit of sightseeing in the Huey. I want a stick with a grip and throttle that allows me to fit almost all HOTAS buttons of every module onto it.

And I don't feel like having a collection of grips that I quickly exchange before flying.

 

The TM-WH at least has a proper grip with loads of hats and is used both in the F-16 as well as the A-10. I still would prefer an additional push button somewhere. The throttle on the other hand, is way to specific. I want more hats, more buttons (not 3-way switches), and proper rotaries and a mini-stick.

 

The TM WH is a godsent for all those that want to build a hog-pit, but in all other ways it is pretty limited - it is simply designed like the real thing, and that was designed to work for one specific plane.

 

So, what am I rambling about? I would actually prefer ONE proper grip that is ergonomic, has loads of buttons, hats and the like as well as a proper gimbal/base to go with it. The throttle as well should have everything I should ever need when simming.

 

So, do you plan on building some kind of universal grip and throttle? I know this started as an F-18 grip, but became so much more.

[agrasyuk]

For example, this is the sight you are greeted with when you open a $500 present box from a certain rudder pedal manufacturer:

 

That looks horrible, sorry :D, and takes waaaaay too much time to do. No disrespect to him, he still provides a product to this community that was not available before, so my hat is off to him. But I want more.

 

while proper foam cut packing will assure product is not damaged en-route the item pictured proved to packed adequately to cross the Atlantic. if you set your sights on surpassing the quality level achieved by this manufacturer, excellent news. but that will take a lot as the item is superb (if you use MFGs as example its considerably ahead),and making prettier box would not be your main concern. without laser capable cutting serious gauge metal i don't see how you can accomplish better product then above, 3d printing will not be of great help here.

Edited December 12, 2015 by agrasyuk

[spacenavy90]

To be quite honest, I am not that interested in grips for individual planes.

 

The problem: They are way too specific for a plane. I like to fly all kinds of planes - sometimes I like to do a bit of WW2 dogfighting, sometimes I like to fly the MIG21. Sometimes I do a bit of sightseeing in the Huey. I want a stick with a grip and throttle that allows me to fit almost all HOTAS buttons of every module onto it.

And I don't feel like having a collection of grips that I quickly exchange before flying.

 

The TM-WH at least has a proper grip with loads of hats and is used both in the F-16 as well as the A-10. I still would prefer an additional push button somewhere. The throttle on the other hand, is way to specific. I want more hats, more buttons (not 3-way switches), and proper rotaries and a mini-stick.

 

The TM WH is a godsent for all those that want to build a hog-pit, but in all other ways it is pretty limited - it is simply designed like the real thing, and that was designed to work for one specific plane.

 

So, what am I rambling about? I would actually prefer ONE proper grip that is ergonomic, has loads of buttons, hats and the like as well as a proper gimbal/base to go with it. The throttle as well should have everything I should ever need when simming.

 

So, do you plan on building some kind of universal grip and throttle? I know this started as an F-18 grip, but became so much more.

 

Why use a grip at all? Just use the default grip and button layout.

[hegykc]

No pretty box - no major retailer acceptance. No retailer - no large quantities. No large quantities - no money for a pretty box. No pretty box - no major retailer acceptance... and here we go, back into that viscous circle. So even if not apparent from a customer's point of view, the "pretty box" has a very direct impact on the final product and can have a major impact on all aspects of production.

 

I cannot surpass the quality of that particular manufacturer, as the quality is as you say superb, and I completely agree. I myself have drooled over the pictures of his pedals in admiration, and I still do. It is not my goal to beat anyone's quality, only prices and quantaties. Match the quality, beat the prices. Beat the heck out the prices.

 

Step 1 - free pretty packaging, ckeck.

 

A pretty box is not a concern when you're thinking in terms of a 500$ product. He can take 20$ out of his 200$ profit and get a superb packaging solution made tomorrow and ship those pedals to the moon and say "here, happy now?". But can he do that with a 320$ product where his profit is 20$? No. I can, I own the machine. He can also take 5$ and pay for that pretty engraved name plate on his 500$ product. But can he do it on a 305$ product? No. I can, I own the machine.

 

This goes for every single process. Sure it's not necessary when thinking in terms of a 500$ product, just pay to get everything made, you have the budget. Which is how you get to the 500$ price tag in the first place:) But when you're working on 120$ or 60$ budget, every dollar counts.

Edited December 12, 2015 by hegykc

[spacenavy90]

No pretty box - no major retailer acceptance. No retailer - no large quantities. No large quantities - no money for a pretty box. No pretty box - no major retailer acceptance... and here we go, back into that viscous circle. So even if not apparent from a customer's point of view, the "pretty box" has a very direct impact on the final product and can have a major impact on all aspects of production.

 

I cannot surpass the quality of that particular manufacturer, as the quality is as you say superb, and I completely agree. I myself have drooled over the pictures of his pedals in admiration, and I still do. It is not my goal to beat anyone's quality, only prices and quantaties. Match the quality, beat the prices.

 

Step 1 - pretty packaging, ckeck.

 

I don't care about any box because I just end up throwing it away anyway.

 

However, quality is important. So when you say that you aren't trying to beat their quality, what areas in the joystick can we expect to be lower?

[Rocky49]

I believe the packaging I received from Milan came from you, right?

[Viersbovsky]

Why use a grip at all? Just use the default grip and button layout.

 

Because the TM WH base/gimbal has severe problems that make me search for an alternative. And the WH grip is also kind of impractical (more buttons, slew control, better ergonomics would be nice).

 

So since this project entails grips, a base and a throttle unit, I would rather have a universal throttle and grip instead of an F-18 grip and a BF109 grip, and a Mig-21 grip etc etc etc.

[spacenavy90]

Because the TM WH base/gimbal has severe problems that make me search for an alternative. And the WH grip is also kind of impractical (more buttons, slew control, better ergonomics would be nice).

 

So since this project entails grips, a base and a throttle unit, I would rather have a universal throttle and grip instead of an F-18 grip and a BF109 grip, and a Mig-21 grip etc etc etc.

 

The X-55 Rhino is pretty universal. We can trade if you want. :)

Edited December 12, 2015 by spacenavy90

[MTFDarkEagle]

I'm really mythed at people calling the TMWH too specific.. If you didn't know the same hotas could be found in the A-10/F-16 it would be just as universal as any other hotas, except for the labeling of the switches maybe.

[Viersbovsky]

The X-55 Rhino is pretty universal.

 

And it has its own slew of problems (layout is very uncomfortable for people with small hands, all rotaries jitter)... From the one I tested at a shop, it does have some stiction problems like the X52. So no more cheap plastic for me, only ball bearings and aluminum.

 

Hegykc's base looks very solid, it just lacks a grip that I can use for all my modules.

 

I'm really mythed at people calling the TMWH too specific.. If you didn't know the same hotas could be found in the A-10/F-16 it would be just as universal as any other hotas, except for the labeling of the switches maybe.

 

The grip is okay, could just use a bit more (push)buttons.

No rotaries on the throttle and a low quality slew limit the usefulness to me. The 3 way switches are very specific. Also, two easily reachable pushbuttons for use as modifiers would get more mileage from it. I also feels quite awkward when it comes to ergonomics for me. My fingers really don't like that pinky button.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Viersbovsky

[POLARIS1]

I know this guy...he doesn't speak much, but when he does it's wisdom one should usually listen to.

He doesn't advertise much but those who have heard of his craftsmanship line up and wait, patiently.

He doesn't boast or promise anything he can not do, though his knowledge and skills are far beyond other's I have met.

He doesn't speak much, not on forums or anywhere else...though he is very fluent, knows how to express himself and has an opinion.

This guy concentrates on 3 things:

1. Making the best product he can dream of.

2. Giving the best service to those who are interested in his products or buy it.

3. The love of aircrafts.

4. The love of craftsmanship.

 

Not to criticize anyone, but I read here so many words...

Can we see some results as close as possible to this Croatian guy?

In all aspects.

[MTFDarkEagle]

The grip is okay, could just use a bit more (push)buttons.

No rotaries on the throttle and a low quality slew limit the usefulness to me. The 3 way switches are very specific. Also, two easily reachable pushbuttons for use as modifiers would get more mileage from it.

*More* pushbuttons on the grip?!?? :huh:

It's already got 16 buttons + the hat switch, how much more could you fit on it?

 

Why are 3-way switches specific? Find me a plane without them.

The stick has two easily reachable pushbuttons for modifiers: the two pinky buttons.

 

I still fail to follow (most of) your logic here...

 

Agreed on the low quality slew and the lack of a rotary on the throttle. The latter is indeed something it could do with very nicely. On the other hand, I have yet to find a function where I had to have one, where I could not find another way of mapping the relevant function.

[dburne]

Yeah I have used both the paddle and the NWS button as modifiers, with no problem at all. But I do have large hands and long fingers.

 

No problem using the 3 ways switches here either, easily programmed in TARGET. In the game GUI will only get two effective switches unless LUA modifications.

 

I would have loved to have had a couple of rotaries on the throttle ( true rotaries not the slider), but understand what they were shooting for going for the A-10C look. Honestly though, I am making out just fine without them.

 

I too agree on the slew , would have been nice to have had one more like the Cougar had.

But when it comes to my WH, I would not give it up for anything right now. Love the thing.

[Viersbovsky]

*More* pushbuttons on the grip?!?? :huh:

It's already got 16 buttons + the hat switch, how much more could you fit on it?

 

Why are 3-way switches specific? Find me a plane without them.

The stick has two easily reachable pushbuttons: the two pinky buttons.

 

I still fail to follow (most of) your logic here...

 

Agreed on the low quality slew and the lack of a rotary on the throttle. The latter is indeed something it could do with very nicely. On the other hand, I have yet to find a function where I had to have one, where I could not find another way of mapping the relevant function.

 

I really do not want to litter this thread, but:

-An additional button on the front, so you can mimic the Sukhoi and Mig Layouts. I liked that about the X52 over the Warthog actually.

 

- One of the 3 way switches latches to forward position (aitbrake), but not the other way. That is very specific, I cannot find much use for it otherwise. The other is a two way that latches, the other is momentary. They also feel quite awkward to use. I really prefer pushbuttons or momentary switches. May be personal preference, I really don't like it and it always a hassle to find a proper setup for my modules.

 

- Pinky buttons on the grip are great, yes. On the throttle, there is one pinky button (the red one), and I cannot reach that button without contorting my hand. Pushing that button has also at one point caused me to "unhinge" my tendon! Not comfortable in the slightest, so there is no way I can use this for often used commands.

 

Also once again, rotaries.

 

I want some buttons for my left thumb to operate. The comms switch is nice, but it will almost always be set for Teamspeak.

 

I like to go by a "left hand does control the mode, right hand executes" regime. By using pushbuttons on the throttle I set a mode like sensors, weapons etc and then use the stick to do that. That cannot be done quite well with the hats on the throttle.

 

I know we will not agree here, it is a matter of preference. I actually greatly prefered the layout of the X52 to the Warthog. All buttons and hats are easy to reach. I just wish there were more hats on the stick. When it comes to quality, my X52 became borderline useless (jittering) some time ago, so there is that.

I also do not quite like the Warthog because of the insane stiction my unit has.

 

And to reiterate my point: I would simply prefer a HOTAS system that does not simply mimic an existing layout, but takes a kind of "best of" apporach, where ergonomics (don't need to contort your fingers) and an attempt to make it compatible with as many modules as possible is the focus.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Viersbovsky

[hegykc]

I don't care about any box because I just end up throwing it away anyway.

 

However, quality is important. So when you say that you aren't trying to beat their quality, what areas in the joystick can we expect to be lower?

 

I understand you don't care about the packaging. And you shouldn't. I didn't make it for you. I made it so that a major retailer doesn't laugh in my face when I present my 'superb' product to him. I also made it so that his shipping agent/freight insurance company doesn't laugh at his face when he asks them to ship it all over the world.

 

And why should I beat "superb quality"? I can't, even if I wanted to. And anyone who says they can is a liar, and their pants are probably on fire. Superb cannot be beat. Only matched, which I will do. All the small manufacturers today have superb quality products. And I can only work my ass off to match them. I don't claim otherwise, as they have set the bar pretty high.

 

Prices on the other hand, I can beat the crap out of those :)

 

I believe the packaging I received from Milan came from you, right?

 

I can neither confirm nor deny that :D

Edited December 12, 2015 by hegykc

[Sokol1_br]

*More* pushbuttons on the grip?!?? :huh:

It's already got 16 buttons + the hat switch, how much more could you fit on it?

 

I still fail to follow (most of) your logic here...

 

Are 4 push buttons (if included the pad lever) and 12 HAT corners (not include POV HAT) - that can do the same thing at end, but press a HAT corner is not like press a push button if you are not flying F-16/A-10 that use this "corners" for very specific tasks. :)

 

Warthog grip is good for F16/A-10 and modern planes - why I dont understand why people want a F-18 grip with less "HAT corners" if are not making a F-18 replica cockpit. :D - but (IMO) is not a good "universal grip" for all flight games genre.

 

In true no joystick are, they or are F-16 copy/like/imitation or uninspired HAT+4/5 buttons gamey grip.

 

In some way the only innovation in the area - from game POV - was the (RiP) X-65 throttle and his front panel, that will be better in have include toggle switches in this panel and in base.

 

Maybe the new two throttle models promised by VKB came with something similar. ;)

Edited December 12, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[spacenavy90]

I understand you don't care about the packaging. And you shouldn't. I didn't make it for you. I made it so that a major retailer doesn't laugh in my face when I present my superb product to him. I also made it so that his shipping agent/insurance company doesn't laugh at his face when he asks them to ship it all over the world.

 

And why should I beat "superb quality"? I can't, even if I wanted to. And anyone who says they can is a liar, and his pants are probably on fire. Superb cannot be beat. Only matched, which I will do. All the small manufacturers today have superb quality products. And I can only work my ass off to match them, as they have set the bar pretty high.

 

Well I assume you mean the TMWH quality right? But we can expect at least X-55 quality, correct?

[hegykc]

Well I assume you mean the TMWH quality right? But we can expect at least X-55 quality, correct?

 

I thought you meant MFG quality, SlawDevice, VKB Mamba, KomodoSim and others alike. That is the quality to match.

 

TMWH is superb on the outside. Like a super hot blonde with slightly suspicious dark eyebrows. Then you take her panties off, and it's a Taiwanese lady boy smiling back at you. As magnificent as it is on the outside, there are some really crappy solutions under the hood there. A friction based gimbal are you kidding me, what is this the stone age? Ball bearings please, you know like the wheel and everything.

 

All the guys I just mentioned have already surpassed big manufacturers in terms of quality. And I better match that.

Edited December 12, 2015 by hegykc

[spacenavy90]

I thought you meant MFG quality, SlawDevice, VKB Mamba, KomodoSim and others alike. That is the quality to match.

 

TMWH is superb on the outside. Like a super hot blonde with slightly suspicious dark eyebrows. Then you take her panties off, and it's a Taiwanese lady boy smiling back at you. As magnificent as it is on the outside, there are some really crappy solutions under the hood there. A friction based gimbal are you kidding me, what is this the stone age? Ball bearings please, you know like the wheel and everything.

 

All the guys I just mentioned have already surpassed big manufacturers in terms of quality. And I better match that.

Wow! And for a fraction of the price? You definitely have a buy from me.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[agrasyuk]

I know this guy...he doesn't speak much, but when he does it's wisdom one should usually listen to.

He doesn't advertise much but those who have heard of his craftsmanship line up and wait, patiently.

 

...

 

Not to criticize anyone, but I read here so many words...

Can we see some results as close as possible to this Croatian guy?

In all aspects.

 

Well , its hard to tell at this point. VKB, Slaw and others have results on the table, in whatever quantitys they can fulfill and quality/price point they can pull of. Quality level of this Croatian guy can only be measured when his product materializes. it does indeed sound like he is aiming for top tier however. Eventually we will see, but so far yes, we read many words.

[POLARIS1]

agrasyuk,

 

Oh, but you know this Croatian guy lol for his product had materialized.

What is written is not what might be but rather what is.

[hansangb]

I thought you meant MFG quality, SlawDevice, VKB Mamba, KomodoSim and others alike. That is the quality to match.

 

TMWH is superb on the outside. Like a super hot blonde with slightly suspicious dark eyebrows. Then you take her panties off, and it's a Taiwanese lady boy smiling back at you. As magnificent as it is on the outside, there are some really crappy solutions under the hood there. A friction based gimbal are you kidding me, what is this the stone age? Ball bearings please, you know like the wheel and everything.

 

All the guys I just mentioned have already surpassed big manufacturers in terms of quality. And I better match that.

 

 

hegykc,

Yikes! I can never unread that. So the next time I grab the TM stick, I'll be cringing a bit. And I agree with you that TM looks great on the outside. The innards certainly should have been better for a (close to) $450 product, IMO.

 

And for everyone else, let's wait to see the product before we condemn anyone, shall we?

 

I for one will cheer for anyone making my sim experience better.

[agrasyuk]

agrasyuk,

 

Oh, but you know this Croatian guy lol for his product had materialized.

What is written is not what might be but rather what is.

 

I must be missing something then. Which product is it?

[hansangb]

I'm assuming Polaris1 is talking about the (most outstanding) MFG rudders.

 

http://mfg.simundza.com/products

 

Count me as one of the happy owners.