F-18 grip, WARTHOG compatible

[aaron886]

That's just not possible. The terrible plastic ball-joint will still exist. It will still use the single "3d" hall sensor. Mechanically there is still completely blended axes - mechanically. Your mod doesn't change that.

 

Sure it's possible. I built a stick using a motorcycle universal-joint (u-joint) and radially attached springs. It wasn't perfect but it was inherently better than Thrustmaster's vertically-aligned helical spring. Even with TM's imperfect plastic gimbal, I completely believe this will be a whole new stick.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Sounds good hegykc! :thumbup:

Just send me a set to try out.. ;)

[aaron886]

For many who own the Warthog, a VKB stick is not a viable option. (And who knows when they'll be taking orders again even if I do want to drop another $300?) I want my Warthog to do what it should, not a replacement. Besides, there's nothing particularly disappointing with the Warthog's sensor, and I bet correcting the spring tension this way will alleviate some of the sticktion. I'm not expecting perfect, just better.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Just getting rid of that center ''clonk'' will be a 100% increase in value...!

[hansangb]

Just getting rid of that center ''clonk'' will be a 100% increase in value...!

 

Just use an extender or remove the main spring.

 

That takes care of it.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Already have it extended, even though it's better it does not solve the annoying center.

Tried removing the main spring, but stick got too soft.

This however, seems like something that could work. :)

[hegykc]

The issue is, due to mechanically being the same ball joint/blended axes, with your spring mod you'll still be introducing non-linear loading forces when crossing the diagonals due to engaging 2 of the springs at once.

 

True. But a much bigger issue is that Warthog costs around 600$ (I paid 760$ for it) for non US customers, and the vast majority of those that bought it aren't so keen on just replacing the stick for another 300-400$ minimum for a VKB base.

 

Axis separation is 0% on stock warthog, this mod brings it up to 50%+, maybe way more maybe way less, I'll measure, but it's definitely there. Hard center goes from 100% to 0%. So that's a 50% improvement on one issue and a 100% improvement on the other. For a 30$, 2 minute fix it's a no-brainer.

 

Anyone who wants and can afford a perfect solution, sure it's VKB, if you can find one in EU.

Edited August 2, 2016 by hegykc

[Flamin_Squirrel]

the underlying issue for the blended axes still exists.

 

No it doesn't; that's created by the stupid single spring arrangement.

 

You're right that the ball joint also prevents complete isolation of the two axis, but that doesn't mean this mod can't make a huge difference. Example: imagine the mod with the left/right springs removed. You'd still have resistance in pitch, but the stick would be almost completely slack in roll.

[hegykc]

Hegykc himself said in a post slightly higher up that it won't completely cure the axis seperation issue (my arguement is that it won't solve the axis seperation issue at all) but the main improvement is the center detent which I agree with.

 

On a stock warthog if you pull full pitch up you need 2lb of force to hold it there. I you now add full right roll there is no extra force needed, still 2lb of force, the 1 spring is already engaged no matter where you pull the stick, hence the axis are 100% blended.

 

With this mod, if you pull full pitch up you need 2lb of force to hold it. But if you now try to add full right roll you will need extra force, be it 2.5lb, 3lb or what ever, you get a certain amount of feedback, hence the axis are not completely blended. Whether this separation is 10%, 50% or 80% I still don't know. But the fact is, if you pull second axis, you engage a second set of springs. (Yes, along with extra engagement of the 1 set, but that extra force goes into roll feedback, not pitch feedback since pitch is already fully engaged)

 

Not easily explained by words. But the fact is stock warthog has 1 spring. If you pull only pitch up to 100%, both pitch and roll are engaged 100%.

 

This mod has 2 sets of springs, if you only pull pitch up, you engage 100% of pitch up spring, and also about 20% roll springs. Now if you want to add full roll along with that pitch up, you engage the additional 80% of one of the roll springs. Hence the axis are separated, but to a degree. Not fully.

Edited August 2, 2016 by hegykc

[Mr_Burns]

Having never flown a fighter I find the Warthog just fine, in fact awesome.

 

I would suggest a poll to see if I am in the top 95% of Warthog owners, somehow, because I trully dont get half of the issues here.

 

Make A simple clip on for the slew on the throttle!

[Cowboy10uk]

1 order, right here. Can't wait to use this on my stock Warthog

 

Cowboy10uk

[TheSlickOne]

Having never flown a fighter I find the Warthog just fine, in fact awesome.

 

I would suggest a poll to see if I am in the top 95% of Warthog owners, somehow, because I trully dont get half of the issues here.

 

Make A simple clip on for the slew on the throttle!

 

I think the size of the issue you experience largely depends on what you fly with the Warthog (and your luck with QC). Mine has a VERY bad sticktion problem but despite that I can use it in DCS to fly jets and launch missiles, drop bombs, etc. However, trying to precisely aim the guns in DCS or in particular War Thunder sim mode is an exercise in futility. The sticktion simply prevents smooth tracking of a maneuvering target where you need to hold your plane in a turn WHILE making small minute adjustments to aim and give lead to the guns.

 

If I pull a turn and then trying to ease on that turn the TMWH stick first sticks then abruptly jumps a bit as I relax/move my hand.

 

I have absolutely no problem with precision aiming in these situations with the T16000 or the recently acquired VKB Mamba.

 

It appears that the TM Warthog quality control varies greatly from unit to unit. I pulled the short stick so my money is wasted. Others may be more fortunate. Therefore I'm eagerly awaiting the spring mod so I may be able to use my TM WH again. :(

[Flamin_Squirrel]

You've also contradicted yourself by saying that the underlying issue of the blended axes isn't the balljoint, it's the single spring setup, but then you went on to say that the ball joint prevents indepentent loading of the two axes...

 

I've done no such thing. I conceded that a ball joint within the limitations of the sock base will prevent blending from being completely eliminated, but that the spring arrangement is more critical.

 

On the other hand, you seem to think that the ball joint is a more critical factor than the spring arrangement, which is simply not true. If you have a single spring acting on both axis you could produce the best gimbal in the world, but you'll still have exactly the same 100% blending problem that you have with the current stick.

 

Yes if you removed the the left + right spring the pitch would have resistance and roll would be slack and could be independently loaded, until you crossed two axes... if you went up the Y-axis, and then went into the X-axis (which is slack), the lower pitch spring would stretch further, thus causing more resistance and would pull the stick down the pitch axis towards the center unless you added more force to hold it up there. This is because the axes are still completely blended.

 

They're not completely blended with this mod. If you've convinced yourself they are, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.

[Sokol1_br]

Axis separation is 0% on stock warthog, this mod brings it up to 50%+, maybe way more maybe way less, I'll measure, but it's definitely there.

 

Run JoyTester2, can't be a "scientific method" but give a good idea.

 

Here a Warthog test, see in X, Y only movements the blending in axis.

 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uAuvmaceEg[/ame]

 

 

Here's a Cougar test, that despite the bad pot' show straight lines in X and Y as his gimbal mechanics allow this separation (at least).

 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etfMe7Z5dkM[/ame]

 

Or Thrustmaster Analyzer, does the same test.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[hegykc]

Maybe this can make things more clear:

 

You can see how a stock warthog requires no additional force once any of the axis is at 100%, there just isn't any more spring tension left over. Actually it's like that for any amount. If you pull 50% pitch up, and then add 50% roll it's the same situation, 1lb of force vs. 1lb of force. So once you engage 1 axis, there is zero force required to pull the same amount of the other axis. The single warthog spring is compressed and you can do circles with the stick effortlessly. You cannot do that on a spring mod. And it can be achieved in several ways. Different strength springs for pitch and roll, different spring angle, different spring attachment height making certain springs extend more for the same amount of angle deflection etc.

Save

Edited August 2, 2016 by hegykc

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I'd save your time explaining hegykc. Most will see the benefits of this mods.

 

Cowards like Cyph3r will give you negative rep for pointing out their inaccuracies.

[hegykc]

No reason to get harsh. I don't mind explaining my point, and I know where his logic is coming from, there are just ways to go around any problem, including the one he describes where 4 springs of the same strength/position might have no axis separation at all, like the stock warthog. They might, I will test, but I'm already using a setup that goes around that problem, and that's different strength springs and positioning.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I have no interest in repeating myself, nor pointing out why your replies don't make sense.

 

I'm perfectly capable of reading your posts. They keep saying the same thing: that a ball joint prevents complete separation of X and Y forces. While this mod may not achieve complete separation due to practical constraints, to claim it's (edit:// I mean theoretically) impossible is categorically false (and can be demonstrated with some simple geometry).

 

I've taken the time to reply to your posts and do my best to explain why I believe you're mistaken. I'm not sure why you're not able to extend me the same courtesy. If my responses aren't clear, or you need further detail, say so and I'll do my best provide a better explanation.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Flamin_Squirrel

[Weasel]

Hi hegykc

 

Nice to see you go ahead with your projects.

 

You made me very happy when I read your posts about the MFCDs and the CDU. I really hope we will we able to order your hardware soon as I can't wait to play DCS A-10C with your hardware. I actually use the TM MFD but it's not the same as having real MFCDs.

[The Black Swan]

.... Why are you guys arguing about this...

Isn't the whole point of this mod to make the stick's required force feel more realistic?

Correcting axis blending was just a hypothetical benefit?

Maybe I missed the memo....

[The Black Swan]

Ok I missed that

[Flamin_Squirrel]

As to why a particular user went on the defensive over it - I honestly don't know. Hegykc himself has taken note so that's the important thing. Hopefully he can make a killer mod for the Warthog.

 

I'm not on the defensive. You've got a particular view in your head and you're so convinced you're right that you've not paid attention to what I've said. Please spare a minute to read the following:

 

X and Y forces can be isolated by ensuring that the length of the springs acting on one axis doesn't change when the stick is moved in the other axis. This is achievable by ensuring that both the bottom spring pivot points are in the same plane as the centre of rotation of the ball joint.

 

A crude but hopefully understandable image below shows a section of a stick (blue line) deflected right. Pushing the stick forward or aft will not change the length of the roll springs (red lines) because both stick and springs rotate around the same axis (horizontal line).

 

As you pointed out in a previous post, if the pivot points are higher (as in hegykc's design) the springs will be stretched and the forces aren't completely separated. It might not be practical, nor might hegykc be inclined to move the bottom spring pivots, but it's an idea.

 

 

Now if I've missed something, please explain why, instead of being unconstructive and simply down repping me.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Flamin_Squirrel

[hegykc]

I will post more graphs from my tests later.

 

There are many things that can be tweaked, that are not obvious from the early pictures I posted. First of all I can change the strength of each spring, I can change the distance of each attachment point (bottom and top) from the center line, and I can change the height at which each of the springs is attached. On top of that I can change the position angle of the springs, they don't have to be setup in 3,6,9 and 12 o'clock positions. So I can basically have any kind of separation I want, but up to a certain point. I think 50% separation between axis at best, because this just isn't what a joystick mechanism should be. I'm trying to get the best out of a bad situation. While joysticks like VKB or any other with 2 separate gimbals can have 200%, 500% more force in one of the axis if they wish. But the stock warthog has 0%, so any separation at all does magic for your precision flying/aiming compared to stock.

 

Here is a graph with exact numbers for my basic spring mod. If you look at the number for Pitch only - 16 Newtons, then look at the number for Combined 100% pitch + 100% roll, now the force required to hold this position is 22 Newtons, which would be around 35% axis separation. On stock warthog this number is 22N vs 22N, so 0% separation. This is just one of infinite number of tweaks I can do to the design in terms of spring placement. I have to choose 3,4 sets of holes to be placed on the bottom plate, plus 3,4 sets of springs and you can setup your warthog any way you like, graphs will be provided to guide you:

What this means is that while you engage pitch, any roll engagement is felt because it requires extra force. Unlike the stock warthog where, once you engage pitch up, the stick is completely limp in equal amount of right-left movement which kills any attempt at precision flying/aiming.

 

I've been doing these tests all week. I have a version where even the pitch down is separated from pitch up, like in the real aircraft, pitch down requires more force than pitch up. I will post more graphs later.

Save

Edited August 3, 2016 by hegykc

[Necroscope]

so any separation at all does magic for your precision flying/aiming compared to stock.

This is the clear illustration of this:

You've got a particular view in your head and you're so convinced you're right that you've not paid attention to what I've said.

 

On the topic: magic - yes, but some sort of curse or plague.

In fact - this will ruin greatest achievement of TM - clear unified and predictable response over the whole joystick range. More to say, with separated axis - you will got noticeable "bump" while traveling in one axis through zero point of the other. Not really the thing I'd like to have while ganzo dogfight.

 

Regarding real planes - I flew Wilga and Yak-52 myself - there no axis separation (no zero point as well, btw).

If you suffering axis bleed flying with Warthog - this mean only that your flying/aiming skill suxx.

Sorry for that.

[hegykc]

Regarding real planes - I flew Wilga and Yak-52 myself - there no axis separation

Sorry for that.

 

This one is easy :)

 

If you move the stick in a real plane (in flight) it won't return to center? It will.

 

And elevator/aileron cables/servos are not separated and don't require different amount of force to operate? They are and they do.

Save

Edited August 3, 2016 by hegykc