F-18 grip, WARTHOG compatible

[dburne]

I'm assuming Polaris1 is talking about the (most outstanding) MFG rudders.

 

34 pages in the review thread in this forum, spanning nearly 2 years time, and not one single negative thing to say about these pedals. That says it all.

 

After reading so much positive and wanting them for a while, well mine are being produced as we speak and should be here hopefully in the next couple of weeks or so.

[Beeroshima]

You wont regret it.

 

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[spacenavy90]

Man.. I wish I could afford those... Maybe we'll get a cheaper, replica version here?

 

My Saitek pedals keep rolling me off the runway. :|

[Beeroshima]

Personally I am very grateful to Thrustmaster for the Warthog. It's awesome.

Obviously you think you can do better and sell it for less money but until you do then it's all just talk.

 

Your open negativity towards Thrustmaster is not selling your product to me, in fact I have lost all interest in your Hornet stick because of your public persona presented on these forums.

 

Try being a nice positive enthusiastic salesman like Palmer Luckey and you may find you sell more of whatever you end up selling.

I sort of took his position as competitive drive. Nothing wrong with that.

 

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[hansangb]

Personally I am very grateful to Thrustmaster for the Warthog. It's awesome.

Obviously you think you can do better and sell it for less money but until you do then it's all just talk.

 

Your open negativity towards Thrustmaster is not selling your product to me, in fact I have lost all interest in your Hornet stick because of your public persona presented on these forums.

 

Try being a nice positive enthusiastic salesman like Palmer Luckey and you may find you sell more of whatever you end up selling.

 

Jeesh. He said *NOTHING* that's out of line . Thurstmaster *IS* great until you look under the covers. He even said it outright. On the inside, wiring looks like it was done by a 5 year old. I know because I had to take it apart to re-solder a cable that broke off. The gimbal is not as good as it could be. Don't get me wrong, I *like* my warthog, and it's still the best out there. *HOWEVER* on the inside, just as mentioned, it's not top shelf. If you don't believe me, just take the base apart (10 min tops...) and you'll see.

 

This coming from a guy that owned the original Thrustmaster, then the Top Gun version (were they the same??), F16/TQS, then the Cougar, and now the Warthog. So don't think that I'm bashing TM for the sake of bashing.

Edited December 13, 2015 by hansangb

[spacenavy90]

Agreed with the two above. May have been a bit of an over-reaction. He was absolutely not being hostile towards TM, merely pointing out the flaws in their hardware. Is that not alright to do?

 

Although, we haven't seen much from him yet except for 3D models and early prototypes so fingers crossed he shows more soon.

[Beeroshima]

We've seen pictures of prototypes, i thought.

 

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[spacenavy90]

We've seen pictures of prototypes, i thought.

 

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Yes, that's why I said we've only seen early prototypes

 

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[Beeroshima]

Ah....my fault....i missed that part....its late here.

 

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[spacenavy90]

If anyone was looking forward to a Hornet stick it was me, I have a whole room filled with a life sized Hornet cockpit. A replacement F/A-18 grip that screws right on to my Warthog would've been great.

 

There are multiple posts where Thrustmaster are portrayed as a company he wants to make sure do not profit from his work.

Plus my Saitek Combat pedals are fantastic, so bagging Saitek also does not sound good to my ears. At least they are authentic in that you use the arch of your foot on the pedal bar and push your toes over for brakes.

The "superb" and expensive competitor looks like the things that shoe stores use to measure your feet, nothing like what's in a real aircraft.

 

There are many ways to market your goods and I am just letting him know that his attitude has driven my cash away and eliminated my desire to now purchase what looks to be an exciting product.

 

The rest of us don't seem to detect the hostility from hegykc that you seem to... so its your loss really.

 

Hopefully you can find a Hornet joystick someplace else.

[MA_Goblin]

I have TM Warthog and Saitek Combat pedals and both look great but in reality when dismantling and looking inside is less than great in my opinion. Tacky quality and workmanship of assembly and components. I for one is looking forward to see the finalised product.

 

I don't find any hostility in the previous statements about the companies from the OP and I fully agree in the assessment about the build quality.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Agreed. The TM warthog may look impressive but it's definitely not top quality.

 

I mean why bother using hall effect sensors for great control resolution... then use a cheap nasty plastic ball and socket joint for the gimbal?

 

Quite frankly I think TM deserve to be punished some, so they think twice about cutting corners next time they develop a new product.

[Beeroshima]

I never said the word hostility, I said negativity.

There is definite negativity toward TM (and Saitek) throughout this thread, even though their name is used in the thread title to lure people in.

Just some friendly feedback from a previously interested consumer.

Youre of course entitled to your opinion. I agree the MFG's don't look the part but their functionality is unparalleled. Lol @ the shoe measuring resemblance. Youre right on that one! I can totally understand him not wanting thrustmaster to not profit off of HIS work. Its proprietary. Its his work. Why should they? Hes not a thrustmaster employee.

 

In the small, niche world of simming, we have extremely limited options. His product, assuming it comes to fruition will expand those hardware options on a relatively massive scale. I dont view his opinion of the inferiority of the other options out there as a bad thing. If that motivates somebody to make an outstanding quality sim component in a market that is seemingly starving for them, then i wish him the best of luck.

 

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[Flamin_Squirrel]

I never said the word hostility, I said negativity.

There is definite negativity toward TM (and Saitek) throughout this thread, even though their name is used in the thread title to lure people in.

Just some friendly feedback from a previously interested consumer.

 

Why so black and white? You can still like something ( or someone for that matter ) without it being perfect.

 

I don't think the TM warthog is a bad product, but it doesn't make me or anyone else negative because we won't let them off the hook for things they could have done better.

[dburne]

I mean why bother using hall effect sensors for great control resolution... then use a cheap nasty plastic ball and socket joint for the gimbal?

 

My guess would be like most companies, they had market research and a fairly good idea of a price point that would be successful for them in number of sales to return a profit on their investment.

 

I agree would have been nice to have a more robust gimbal system, but may well have priced the unit out of the market numbers they needed to achieve. The gimbals certainly could have been better, but coming from the Cougar they are certainly an improvement over what they had as well.

[hegykc]

TM Warthog is the greatest piece of flight sim hardware ever manufactured. Which is why I own 2 sets. No neither of them broke, I just own two. One is on the shelf, as a reminder of what to inspire to, and one is dissected into 150 pieces. Each wire de-soldered, each switch unscrewed. I did that 2 years ago, when the price of a locally bought warthog set was 720$ in my country.

 

It brings me no joy and it hurts me to say that my favorite toy has a crappy base. No it's not so-so, it's not okay, it's not somewhat bad. The gimbal mechanism is absolute crap I didn't even find on a 15$ joystick I disassembled for comparison. A single tear just rolled down my left eye.

 

It is a friction based gimbal. Just think about that for a second. A gimbal is a mechanical device meant to provide frictionless movement. And they went on to achieve that by using direct contact friction. You can't eve say it, those are like two words with the exact opposite meaning. Like "square wheel". A Ferrari, with sleds instead of high performance tires. The throttles are a beast, with a crap slew controller. Not so-so, not okay, crappy crappy slew control. Because they decided to use the cheapest solution possible.

 

Ok, they had to cut corners because injection metal casting costs big bucks so all the money went to the grip which is absolutely superb. They even went the extra length to put custom springs into each button so they replicate operational forces on the real grip buttons and hats. But the base mechanism is crap. The slew control is crap.

 

I can't go into detail about everything, I have a lot to do still so I try to keep it short. Some misunderstandings will occur.

 

Have no doubt, I have great respect for anyone making quality stuff, no matter what the price and even with flaws. Especially if it's ground breaking stuff for our relatively small community.

 

My grips will extend the file of their superb but problematic product, indefinitely, and will result in more sales for them so they get no pity or mercy for their mistakes from me. They're a huge company, they can deal with it if they want to. They know how to write checks.

Edited December 13, 2015 by hegykc

[Sporg]

I never said the word hostility, I said negativity.

There is definite negativity toward TM (and Saitek) throughout this thread, even though their name is used in the thread title to lure people in.

Just some friendly feedback from a previously interested consumer.

 

Well truth to be told, I own both the TM Warthog HOTAS and the Saitek combat rudder pedals as well, and while being ok satisfied, there are some less optimal issues with both:

 

For the WT HOTAS, the first sample I got, the stick was smooth, but could not reach all corners.

When I returned it and purchased a new one, I now got a stick that could reach all corners, but had both sticktion and a scratching sound right from the beginning.

I recently gave up and dismantled it for re-greasing.

As it turned out, the sticktion came partly from burrs on the parts, partly from too tight fitting between parts.

Had to scrape with a knife and use sandpaper it to make it smooth.

That, and the varying quality control, is not satisfying for a product in this price range I think.

However, when working, it is still a very precise stick.

 

For the Saitek pedals, I had to disassemble these as well due to the annoying centre detent that is mounted inside.

After doing that they became much better, but they still have several issues:

1. They flicker in all axis in all other positions than centre or rest.

2. One of the brake axis hangs and I have to let it slam to rest in order to get it to reset.

3. The slide mechanism wheels and tracks collect dirt and grit, so that the pedal movement, after just one year's use in a relatively clean environment, has started to feel rough in use.

 

I believe the pedals are good for the price, but still could be better, especially with regards to flickering on the axis.

 

Like others I just see the OP's comments as a strive to get the best possible quality out of his product when it gets finished.

And as OP has pointed out: His holding back on producing Warthog compatible F-18 sticks does not so much stem from not wanting to support TM per se.

It comes more from him not wanting to be caught in a production cycle of these, leaving him with no time to develop other products.

 

I think it is a very interesting project, with a lot of vision, and look forward to see what he eventually comes up with. :)

 

PS: For the MFG pedals, you should look around in actual aircraft pedals design.

A lot of aircraft use full foot pedals, unlike the F-16 type that you get on the Saitek Combat rudder pedals.

PPS: See OP's comments just above mine. :)

[spacenavy90]

That's fine hegykc, you sound very skilled etc.

 

There is no need for you to be so critical of the TM Warthog in your posts. It's currently the best HOTAS out there and it was obviously produced by hard working people passionate about it.

 

If you can make a better one then please do so. I really wish you all the best.

This is an interesting project and thread, you do not need to be making statements about how crappy the TM Warthog is when nothing exists to match it.

Some people might enjoy your comments and jokes about transsexuals, but I for one find it all a bit petty, especially since you haven't sold one unit yet. I recommend you tone it down a bit and just make your product and keep posting the cool pics.

 

You are essentially saying here: "You aren't allowed to criticize my favorite joystick." :huh:

[Sporg]

Cool, which one/s?

 

Are they military fighters or bug smashers?

 

Bf 109 and FW 190 for instance.

 

Edit: I believe that both the MFGs and the Slaw Device pedals are inspired by the Bf 109 type.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Sporg

[MA_Goblin]

As stated previous both SLAW and MFG pedals are WWII type pedals inspired by the Bf109 controls.

SLAW Devices did make a F16 type combat pedal but it's currently on hold. It's all metal like the WWII pedals.

Probably to much real life interference.

 

[ame]

[/ame] Edited December 13, 2015 by hakjar

[Sokol1_br]

Warthog... It's awesome.

 

Indubitable Warthog is the best HOTAS COTS available to buy. Period.

 

About the adjective, a comment: in early 2000's people used to say the same about Thrustmaster Cougar.

 

Yes, the one who deserves the premium for the "worst gimbal used in HOTAS"... :joystick:

 

But we know the moto: "is metal, is real"... :thumbup:

[AMEDooley]

So do we have a time line on when the stick will be available? I know DCS F/A-18C is not out yet, but I'd like to have the stick before hand.

[spacenavy90]

So do we have a time line on when the stick will be available? I know DCS F/A-18C is not out yet, but I'd like to have the stick before hand.

 

According to hegykc they are ready now, but he doesn't want to get swamped with orders and stop research and developing new products also. I understand and its smart because he'll have more products for a wider consumer base.

 

But I want it now :cry_2:

[Svend_Dellepude]

They even went the extra length to put custom springs into each button so they replicate operational forces on the real grip buttons and hats.

 

AFAIK Thrustmaster only did that to some early beta models but had to replace them with softer springs after getting some complaints from testers about achy fingers.

 

As for the rest of the discussion about Thrustmaster, I too feel there is plenty of room for improvement.

TARGET is great for programming, but they have cut some serious corners in the hardware department and I would be more than happy to pay the extra dollar to have the full solution instead of this halfbaked product.

This goes for both the cougar and WH. Even went the extra mile to get an fssb for my cougar and im seriously thinking about doing the same for my WH.

hegykc is just as entitled to his opinion as anyone here. In fact he is trying to support his opinion by building flightsim products that doesn't come with those annoying flaws as we've seen on previous Thrustmaster products, and from other manufactures for that matter.

Only time will tell if he can pull through, but i sincerly hope so.

All the best to you hegykc! :thumbup:

[hansangb]

Competition is always good. Consumers always win. 14th Jar, it's your prerogative to take your business elsewhere if you don't like what you see or hear. And I hope this doesn't turn into fanboy attacks for a product - as you stated - that doesn't even exist yet.

 

But that's how the system (fair capitalism) is supposed to work. If TM loses enough business, they will either correct the faults or move on to other sims - like driving. And others will reap the reward.

 

Here's an example. The Saitek Pro Pedals were decent. But there was always a bit of "grittiness" to it when you moved it. In fact, you can hear it. MFG is exactly the opposite. It's buttery smooth. So I voted with my $$$ and passed on the Saitek pedals to a coworker and ordered my MFG.

 

But there is one thing I wanted to call out. I believe you said TM folks are working hard and passionate. They may be working hard (who can know for sure) but I know they are *not* passionate. I know because if you are passionate, you don't settle for inferior design. If you are passionate, you take pride in wiring, connectors, etc.

 

Please note that I am *not* faulting TM here. They made a decision to maximize their profit - as is their right - by cutting corners here and there to bring to market a device under some $$ figure. They are not running a charity after all.

 

I like my TM, but the minute a better base comes out, I'll be all over it.

 

Now I just have to figure out how I'm going to accommodate the KomodoSim stuff in Jan! :) My wife is going to be upset. LOL