Nasty SA-6 TTP and video

[Azazel]

Saw this earlier and while this tactic is not currently modeled (as far as I know) in DCS I can see how it could partially be replicated with a trigger in the sim. The video shows how a SA-6 operator in Bosnia shot down an F-16C back in the 90s (Scott O'grady's bird). The SA-6 operator (according to the video) acquired the F-16s speed, altitude, and heading with a short burst of radar usage then turned off and then waited till the F-16s were closer then launched his missiles and waited till they were closer to the F-16s to paint them for a hit. Food for thought if anyone wanted to create or ask for smarter SAMs.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=znBi8Lr35vs

[joey45]

maybe in MP player controlled CA...

[Azazel]

Good call, I didn't even think about that.

[GGTharos]

This is called a ballistic launch (can be with or without terminal guidance) and is just one of the 'evil' SAM techniques we're aware of.

 

Saw this earlier and while this tactic is not currently modeled (as far as I know) in DCS I can see how it could partially be replicated with a trigger in the sim. The video shows how a SA-6 operator in Bosnia shot down an F-16C back in the 90s (Scott O'grady's bird). The SA-6 operator (according to the video) acquired the F-16s speed, altitude, and heading with a short burst of radar usage then turned off and then waited till the F-16s were closer then launched his missiles and waited till they were closer to the F-16s to paint them for a hit. Food for thought if anyone wanted to create or ask for smarter SAMs.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=znBi8Lr35vs

[Azazel]

Anyway that you could code that GG? If not add it to Speed's "to do" list :-)

[GGTharos]

Not possible with the current implementation of SAMs IMHO. The best you can do right now (and it's 'nasty enough') is to keep the SAMs silent until the target is inside the Rtr (range turn and run, used to be called the no escape zone) and then power up the SAM and light up the target. It is quite effective :)

[pepin1234]

What kind of guided system have the Kub air defence. It is SARH??

 

I haven hear about the Mig-29 can fire one R-27 using one unit of Mig-29 to lock/guidance and the other Mig-29 unit to launch. This is not implemented in our simulator or this is not possible to do??

[Azazel]

I've done a little of that with some of the missions I made. They weren't very popular... hehe. Once we start getting DCS quality fast movers people will have a better chance of surviving of course. A-10 drivers getting smacked by an SA-11 from right below brings out the worst in people. :D

[Azazel]

SA-6s is a SARH (beam rider). Not sure about the R-27 tactic via buddy track. Sounds possible.

[joey45]

Ten we need the Tornado with the ALARM...

[zaelu]

I think this is the full episode

 

qtvi7OGp-Qw

 

just follow the next parts

[Ranger79]

Wow that is DIRTY!!!! Hard to counter act that maneuver!

[Robin_Hood]

I am eagerly waiting for DCS: F/A-18C to do some SEAD and play the hunter instead of the hunted with SAMs :pilotfly:

[GGTharos]

It is SARH (not a beam rider BTW, it is a homing missile :) ).

 

What you are talking about is possible with any SARH missile, but not done in practice usually.

 

The problem is that the two aircraft's radars would be on the same frequency, so they are could interfere (as in EMI) with each other, and make a mess of things if two different targets need to be attacked.

 

What kind of guided system have the Kub air defence. It is SARH??

 

I haven hear about the Mig-29 can fire one R-27 using one unit of Mig-29 to lock/guidance and the other Mig-29 unit to launch. This is not implemented in our simulator or this is not possible to do??

[GGTharos]

Their Intel officers should really tell them those are there. Generally speaking positions of those larger SAMs (and at minimum their presence) will be known. Generally speaking :D

 

I've done a little of that with some of the missions I made. They weren't very popular... hehe. Once we start getting DCS quality fast movers people will have a better chance of surviving of course. A-10 drivers getting smacked by an SA-11 from right below brings out the worst in people. :D

[pepin1234]

It is SARH (not a beam rider BTW, it is a homing missile :) ).

 

What you are talking about is possible with any SARH missile, but not done in practice usually.

 

The problem is that the two aircraft's radars would be on the same frequency, so they are could interfere (as in EMI) with each other, and make a mess of things if two different targets need to be attacked.

 

Copy, then I understand this is not implemented for FC3 aircrafts. I guess in the real life the frequency setting could be change inflight??

[GGTharos]

I don't believe the pilot of a MiG-29A or Su-27S can change this frequency from the cockpit. It has to be done by the ground crew. Even on F-15 it isn't quite so simple (but IIRC you can do it from the cockpit ... I don't think anyone wants to though)

[FatSlapper]

I have had this question for 2 and 1/2 years now.. Isn't this called radar blinking? and is it possible within DCS, I'm not quite sure if GG was answering this or referring to something else.

[Eihort]

Rise topic.

 

Yes, it's called blinking. No, I don't think the AI does it on it's own, but I believe you can set it up with triggers. P.S. As stated, people will hate you.

[Essah]

I've done a little of that with some of the missions I made. They weren't very popular... hehe. Once we start getting DCS quality fast movers people will have a better chance of surviving of course. A-10 drivers getting smacked by an SA-11 from right below brings out the worst in people. :D

 

Well duh! what kind of mission is that anyway?

You'd never send an A-10 on a mission into an area that hasn't first been cleared of radar SAM by SEAD/DEAD. The A-10 is not meant to survive that. No wonder that makes people upset. It's silly unrealistic mission design. Just like the Multiplayer missions where you're expected to do SEAD with an A-10. Makes no sense, Mavericks is not a SEAD weapon.

 

against Su-25T with SEAD weapons or against fast movers it makes more sense since they have a survival chance and could be sent into unsecured areas. (However, if an SA-6 or SA-11 lights up right below you, the survival chances are quite small, no what what aircraft you're in I guess. Would be cool to have a flyable, or even just AI offensive jammer aircraft like the EA-6B prowler, EF-111 Raven or EF-18G Growler or Su-24 Jammer aircraft (I think that's what the Russians use for offensive jamming)

Edited April 10, 2014 by Essah

[PFunk1606688187]

Well duh! what kind of mission is that anyway?

You'd never send an A-10 on a mission into an area that hasn't first been cleared of radar SAM by SEAD/DEAD.

 

Not exactly true. I've heard an A-10 pilot recount trying to orchestrate a CSAR mission in 2003 for some downed airmen and trying to make his way through dense air defenses before having to call the mission off after nearly losing his wingman.

 

Its not really that cut and dried when you add the chaos, fog of war, and necessities of time to the mix, even in a war where the US is kicking serious ass.

[REPUBLICANO]

This kind of implementation shoul wait till the SIM have the F-18 like flyable module. Right now have no sense this implementation. Even the F-18 been available, ED shoul wait some months to add this tactic for CA players.

 

But, YES... All that kind of things shoul be in our SIM someday

[xaoslaad]

Well duh! what kind of mission is that anyway?

You'd never send an A-10 on a mission into an area that hasn't first been cleared of radar SAM by SEAD/DEAD. The A-10 is not meant to survive that. No wonder that makes people upset. It's silly unrealistic mission design. Just like the Multiplayer missions where you're expected to do SEAD with an A-10. Makes no sense, Mavericks is not a SEAD weapon.

 

against Su-25T with SEAD weapons or against fast movers it makes more sense since they have a survival chance and could be sent into unsecured areas. (However, if an SA-6 or SA-11 lights up right below you, the survival chances are quite small, no what what aircraft you're in I guess. Would be cool to have a flyable, or even just AI offensive jammer aircraft like the EA-6B prowler, EF-111 Raven or EF-18G Growler or Su-24 Jammer aircraft (I think that's what the Russians use for offensive jamming)

 

I'm with you on wanting the jammer aircraft, but I doubt people will settle for a 'less than realistic' implementation and that stuff from what I understand is about as secret as secret gets so we're probably not likely to see them.

 

I don't know if it could be done the way are jammers work now where you have to be closer to the SAM for it to be able to 'burn through' like I guess our ECM pods work now, and if that effect could be amplified and made to benefit other aircraft in the range of the jammer aircraft, and if that's even remotely how it works or would be an acceptable implementation. Right now on the A-10C, etc. we flick a switch and magic happens in the background. I don't know if the interface for these systems is so simple on those specialized aircraft and if they could even get enough info to model the interface remotely accurately.

 

Anyway, food for thought on why not to hold your breath. :cry: But I'll pray with you. :smilewink:

 

This makes me love this stuff and the idea of flying something like this to aid a flight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPzFXW2KT2I

Edited April 18, 2014 by xaoslaad

[Scrim]

It's a pretty desperate method that's only used by air defences when they're well SEAD'd. The NV Vietnamese did it, and the Iraqis after them. You don't stand much of a chance of hitting anything.

 

It is the perfect SAM equivalent of Beirut FOs. You don't want to risk getting shot by actually aiming at the enemy, so you just turn the radar on briefly when you reckon it's just before it's too late.

[Darkwolf]

They is a script in the mission editor section of this forum, where someone has made a more realistic IADS - where SAM sites goes off an on depending on whether something has been picked up by a EWR and in which area.

 

didn't tested it yet, but it is here.