About 2000 potential customers?

[SimFreak]

Given that engine is already built, their efforts can be concentrated on stated goals. Plus I'm sure lessons were learned from disaster that was previously released. Not sure why we can't support both sims coming out. This is not like a relationship....there can be two....and three or even more. Not sure why people do not realize this.

[mmaruda]

I completely realise this and fully support it. But successful kickstarter campaign needs proper marketing. That is the reality of it and I think RRG guys should know that.

[ptisinge]

Well, I think it's really not about supporting only one sim or several. I'm one of the 2000 who pre ordered BOS, but I'd support any number of convincing projects.

IL2 BOS happens to be in a place where I feel confident enough to support it by pre ordering it. With DCS WW2 1944 on the other hand, I see no re assuring signs that things will go any other way than they did with COD (they could go even worse, as Kickstarter pledges are NOT pre orders and RRG will have no obligation to give pledgers anything for their money). I have pledged for many projects on Kickstarter (45 projects to be precise!), sometimes projects undertaken by one or two guys only, and yet the DCS WW2 1944 project manages to be one of least detailed pitch I have ever seen there - this doesn't help at all. Given the way they presented the project, RRG can feel lucky that they will reach the initial goal. It's not that they "ruined my life", it's just that their previous project was very disappointing and heavily flawed, so now I'll just wait to see more concrete things before I get excited by this project.

[Charly_Owl]

Well, I think it's really not about supporting only one sim or several. I'm one of the 2000 who pre ordered BOS, but I'd support any number of convincing projects.

IL2 BOS happens to be in a place where I feel confident enough to support it by pre ordering it. With DCS WW2 1944 on the other hand, I see no re assuring signs that things will go any other way than they did with COD (they could go even worse, as Kickstarter pledges are NOT pre orders and RRG will have no obligation to give pledgers anything for their money). I have pledged for many projects on Kickstarter (45 projects to be precise!), sometimes projects undertaken by one or two guys only, and yet the DCS WW2 1944 project manages to be one of least detailed pitch I have ever seen there - this doesn't help at all. Given the way they presented the project, RRG can feel lucky that they will reach the initial goal. It's not that they "ruined my life", it's just that their previous project was very disappointing and heavily flawed, so now I'll just wait to see more concrete things before I get excited by this project.

 

Well, I read through the whole project several times... I think the presentation could definitely be improved, but the content is there. You just need to dig a bit. Here's what the project looks like with a bit more structure and a lil' more "humpf" to it.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1876020&postcount=1

Edited September 17, 2013 by Charly_Owl

[NineLine]

Well, I read through the whole project several times... I think the presentation could definitely be improved, but the content is there. You just need to dig a bit. Here's what the project looks like with a bit more structure and a lil' more "humpf" to it.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1876020&postcount=1

 

 

Nice work Owl, I like when the bright side of the flight sim community shines through :) :thumbup::thumbup:

[agrasyuk]

Well, I read through the whole project several times... I think the presentation could definitely be improved, but the content is there. You just need to dig a bit. Here's what the project looks like with a bit more structure and a lil' more "humpf" to it.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1876020&postcount=1

 

nice posters, really, but are you 100% sure OM is on board for this? in the first video he says that he "is very busy but will help" which pretty much explains the level of involvement. name-throwing not buying my vote.

 

 

marketing - shmarketing.

all i need to hear is:

"we recognize XXX issues that were plaguing our previous release and apologize for reluctance to acknowledge these ( the publisher held our families hostage). we identified the root causes the issues to be YYYY (erroneous effort estimation/not the most optimal prioritizing of tasks/overhead/aliens messing up the code). we used the findings uncovered during this analysis to change our methodology in zzzzz way and applied bbbb strategies. as a result our new release will have less chance to inherit these same errors. besides we now work for ED and these guys put their manager to tightly supervise our work and dictate most of the methodology anyways."

 

instead 80% of the vids so far hear "I want to build great flight sims! i visited an airshow and spoke to a valorous pilot. new terrain engine is green! how green? super-green! but we cant show it yet (even tough a lot of work has already been done and we need to finance QA at this point). now lets play piano "

of course there is a room for fun and silly stuff, of course there is a room for passion. but MEAT should come first. ready product within a year? how it can be delivered that fast?! oh previous work done? great, but what is there already? worked on project within ED ? excellent! what exactly did you see thorough being accomplished?

perhaps it is lack of marketing and presentation skills (perhaps explains the myriad goals that i can't grasp), but to me all this reluctance to talk substance looks like attempt to camouflage some deep inherited issue with he project and i don't hear anything yet to disprove my suspicion.

 

 

a lot of you guys obviously feel very optimistic about this project. and the topic here is convincing others. and that's what i'm trying to figure out: where exactly this optimism stems from? because weighting all that was presented for this i sure can see little grounds for it . my only hope is that ED will not let this slide to deep actually... waiting to hear more as the campain goes on.

[NineLine]

Ok we get it, you aren't convinced yet, and you can show that by not pledging, but this is ED's board, this is a clean slate for RRG, they dont need to come here and beg forgiveness, and honestly I am not sure what that would do for anyone anyways, far as I am concerned, I am buying into the idea, I trust what ED can do and the input they will have. But let the past go... its over, done. If you cant get over it, I know that the CloD boards are still open, you are welcome to go belly ache over there. But as for here, its clear, you arent convinced yet. We got it.

 

This thread has the potential to go the wrong way, lets not let it.

 

 

nice posters, really, but are you 100% sure OM is on board for this? in the first video he says that he "is very busy but will help" which pretty much explains the level of involvement. name-throwing not buying my vote.

 

 

marketing - shmarketing.

all i need to hear is:

"we recognize XXX issues that were plaguing our previous release and apologize for reluctance to acknowledge these ( the publisher held our families hostage). we identified the root causes the issues to be YYYY (erroneous effort estimation/not the most optimal prioritizing of tasks/overhead/aliens messing up the code). we used the findings uncovered during this analysis to change our methodology in zzzzz way and applied bbbb strategies. as a result our new release will have less chance to inherit these same errors. besides we now work for ED and these guys put their manager to tightly supervise our work and dictate most of the methodology anyways."

 

instead 80% of the vids so far hear "I want to build great flight sims! i visited an airshow and spoke to a valorous pilot. new terrain engine is green! how green? super-green! but we cant show it yet (even tough a lot of work has already been done and we need to finance QA at this point). now lets play piano "

of course there is a room for fun and silly stuff, of course there is a room for passion. but MEAT should come first. ready product within a year? how it can be delivered that fast?! oh previous work done? great, but what is there already? worked on project within ED ? excellent! what exactly did you see thorough being accomplished?

perhaps it is lack of marketing and presentation skills (perhaps explains the myriad goals that i can't grasp), but to me all this reluctance to talk substance looks like attempt to camouflage some deep inherited issue with he project and i don't hear anything yet to disprove my suspicion.

 

 

a lot of you guys obviously feel very optimistic about this project. and the topic here is convincing others. and that's what i'm trying to figure out: where exactly this optimism stems from? because weighting all that was presented for this i sure can see little grounds for it . my only hope is that ED will not let this slide to deep actually... waiting to hear more as the campain goes on.

[baronWastelan]

The optimism stems from the fact that the most beautiful and engaging flight sim I've experienced is luthier's previous product.

[chaos]

I've supported both DCS:WWII and BoS simply because I want to keep playing these types of games. If there's no interest from the likes of us, these games will end up being extinct. As simple as that...

 

Just head over to kicktraq.com and look at the top 10 for today. Some idiot Japanese sidescroller game, going by the name of 'Number 9', collected almost $1.000.000 in the first day alone! Is that enough 'reality' for 'you'? For those who fault Ilya's marketing prowess and use that as an argument to not support DCS:WWII... just look at the 'Number 9' kickstarter video... all they're showing is a _drawing_ of the game's character? Quite frankly I find that depressing...

 

So... support DCS:WWII in whatever way you can. If you're so poor that you can't even part with $1, mention this project on Facebook, twitter and other forums. Anything to let people know about this project. Thank you for your support :)

Edited September 17, 2013 by chaos

[lunaticfringe]

Some idiot Japanese sidescroller game collected almost $1.000.000 in the first day alone! Is that enough 'reality' for 'you'?

 

It's the team who did Mega Man- it's got pedigree in hardcore gamer circles.

 

That's like a console gamer calling Andy Hollis working on an AH-1Z "some idiot study sim".

 

Different strokes.

[Screamadelica]

The optimism stems from the fact that the most beautiful and engaging flight sim I've experienced is luthier's previous product.

 

This is one of several reasons that I am supporting DCSWW2. I also have faith that DCS will maintain quality and stability standards. The new EDGE terrain looks very promising. Yes, there were mistakes made in the development of Cliffs Of Dover and I am sure they have learnt from these. I am also sure that Ilya knows that if this new project is plagued by the same issues as Cliffs that he won't get another chance. They have a stable and proven engine to work with. Finally, there is this... DCSWW2 will give us the ability to enjoy a learning curve in terms of CEM that can go to a highly detailed level, if you want to fly at a simpler level you can, but you have the option to go more advanced. This option is not apparently available to the same degree in other upcoming sims. At the end of the day it all depends on what you want from the game. :smilewink:

[chaos]

Different strokes.

 

You're missing the point... or I suck at making it... you choose :)

 

Sidescrollers are a dime-a-dozen. Heck you could build a sidescroller with Adobe Flash. Flightsims are niche and we all know that. So, why not support it in every way possible? This is not a cut on sidescroller games. If anything, it's a cut on us because a lot of us are just whining babies...

Edited September 17, 2013 by chaos

[Pman]

Chaos you yourself are acting like a "whining baby" I was fully behind this and very impressed when I learnt the details of it at legends. However the execution of it has been poor.

 

considering there is say 1200 backers and we are at best 200k short of the first stretch goal it would take a monumental effort to convince everyone to more than double their existing offers

 

I personally will up mine if we start seeing some actual product, at the moment all we have seen is a bit of terrain which doesnt interest me. Show me a render of the P47 cockpit or the external model of the 109 and I will start to be more convinced.

 

But to be honest I think the stretch goals were always exactly that, I could imagine when this project started getting 150-200k but I couldn't ever imagine it hitting $1m that was just crazy.

 

Don't get me wrong should renders of ilya's work actually start showing up then I will bang the war drums and get VA to support it. But till then I'm not going to bust my gut for it. It will fund anyway at the base $100k

[chaos]

Pman,

Apparently this one went right over your head. The issue is not marketing. I think we all agree that this Kickstarter project could've been presented a lot better... that's not the point!.

[Wolf Rider]

Well, that's the thing they have said and continue to to get across to people... "WE ARE ONLY AT THE VERY EARLY STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT". They can't stress this enough and continue to stress it. They've been upfront, they've been honest (haven't tried the hardsell) and more importantly, they have been straightforward.

 

If you don't want to pledge at this stage, great - its your choice... but to continue to demand more product, when that product isn't done yet, just leads some to ask the obvious, and that is: "just what part of the rhetoric aren't you quite understanding?"

[Pman]

That is the point tho, this Kick starter is entirely about marketing and public relations.

 

There is nothing else to go on yet is there? that's the point....

 

I find it very hard to believe after speaking to the varying 3rd parties that I do that there isnt some renders by an artist or something somewhere. If there isnt then they have a massive task to build 3+ DCS level aircraft within a year and get them to beta at least by September 2014

 

If they really are that far in its infancy then I have my doubts about the timeline for delivery.

 

As I said I actually met Ilya at Flying Legends in July and was very impressed with his obvious passion and enthusiasm for this project.

 

At the moment we are going on goodwill, I have nothing against the project, far from it. I would love to see it succeed massively. But for anykind of financial commitment there has to be some give and take.

 

Up till now we havent see much to backup the project is all I am saying.

 

I'd be willing to bet that if some renders of actual aircraft, or tanks or whatever appeared on the kick starter people would actually start to believe in the potential for this.

 

You're right in that Ilya has said that the project is early on, and people will take that into account when looking at their work so far, but without something $375k is alot to ask for, never mind $1m

[Wolf Rider]

" ~ $375k is alot to ask for, never mind $1m ~ "

 

I guess that is why it is called a "stretch" :music_whistling:

[Havner]

This should have been their kickstarter video......period!!!

Pretty sure this is EDGE

 

Heh, the shots at 0:25 and 1:01 are used in the Kickstarter. They are showing a modern corsica terrain as an example of (supposedly) EDGE Normandy? I know it's not said explicitly anywhere but it's kinda implied.

[Pman]

Heh, the shots at 0:25 and 1:01 are used in the Kickstarter. They are showing a modern corsica terrain as an example of (supposedly) EDGE Normandy? I know it's not said explicitly anywhere but it's kinda implied.

 

Your right, I noticed that as well

[agrasyuk]

Well, that's the thing they have said and continue to to get across to people... "WE ARE ONLY AT THE VERY EARLY STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT". They can't stress this enough and continue to stress it. They've been upfront, they've been honest (haven't tried the hardsell) and more importantly, they have been straightforward....

are they not saying they will be done in a year? that's quite a leap from early stages to finished product.

 

This is one of several reasons that I am supporting DCSWW2. I also have faith that DCS will maintain quality and stability standards. The new EDGE terrain looks very promising. Yes, there were mistakes made in the development of Cliffs Of Dover and I am sure they have learnt from these. I am also sure that Ilya knows that if this new project is plagued by the same issues as Cliffs that he won't get another chance. They have a stable and proven engine to work with....

i don't see that stated anywhere they learnt from it and it is not even acknowledged. is there a demonstration of stable and proven engine? i'd really like to see it

 

Ok we get it, you aren't convinced yet, and you can show that by not pledging, but this is ED's board, this is a clean slate for RRG, they dont need to come here and beg forgiveness, and honestly I am not sure what that would do for anyone anyways, far as I am concerned, I am buying into the idea, I trust what ED can do and the input they will have. But let the past go... its over, done. If you cant get over it, I know that the CloD boards are still open, you are welcome to go belly ache over there. But as for here, its clear, you arent convinced yet. We got it.

 

This thread has the potential to go the wrong way, lets not let it.

 

the entire topic is about potential customers and why they stay just potential - perfectly on topic. the grounds for "belly ache" is history of performance level, i don't see how this can be disregarded. frankly the only thing that salvages this effort is ED calling the shots, one can not screw up as bad if he is within given framework.

[Wolf Rider]

It seems, you've had your say (which you are entitled to have) and that should be that... no need to paint the pages here yellow.

Quite a leap? Another sim in the making has a similar base to work from, perhaps you'd be happier there?

Edited September 17, 2013 by Wolf Rider

[MACADEMIC]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but the number of 2000 can't possibly include all the Russian flight simulation fans, which are many. I can only guess why they have't been addressed more in the KS campaign.

 

MAC

[Feuerfalke]

Ok we get it, you aren't convinced yet, and you can show that by not pledging, but this is ED's board, this is a clean slate for RRG, they dont need to come here and beg forgiveness, and honestly I am not sure what that would do for anyone anyways, far as I am concerned, I am buying into the idea, I trust what ED can do and the input they will have. But let the past go... its over, done. If you cant get over it, I know that the CloD boards are still open, you are welcome to go belly ache over there. But as for here, its clear, you arent convinced yet. We got it.

 

This thread has the potential to go the wrong way, lets not let it.

 

Please, exaggerating won't help keeping the thread on course. Nobody here asked them for begging for forgiveness or said they owe us something.

 

But in a way, we give money to a company in advance, like a bank gives money to people. And if you ran one really well known company into ruin, you have to deliver a lot of explanations to get trusted again. This is not done by excuses either. It's a matter of proof of concept. And part of that does well in learning from previous mistakes.

 

Let's be honest, the support shown here and on ks is an affirmation to the love, dedication and faith of this great community. And I can only guess, but IMHO the greatest part of this faith lies in Eagle Dynamics, DCS, Wags and the team. The video itself or the socalled ad-campaign (is there even anything like this?) is probably just the minor part.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Feuerfalke

[mazex]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but the number of 2000 can't possibly include all the Russian flight simulation fans, which are many. I can only guess why they have't been addressed more in the KS campaign.

 

MAC

 

Well - looking at the names of the people that have pledged a majority have "western" sounding names. But there are a bunch of Russian names too... I guess the problem it that in Russia a lot of people don't have $40 to "gamble with" - but a few could pledge the whole amount needed to fund this title if they liked the idea :) Let's find one of those Russians that I met on vacation in Cannes this summer. They would easily put in $100.000 "just for fun" :)

[NineLine]

are they not saying they will be done in a year? that's quite a leap from early stages to finished product.

 

They are building off of DCS World, not starting from scratch.

 

 

i don't see that stated anywhere they learnt from it and it is not even acknowledged. is there a demonstration of stable and proven engine? i'd really like to see it

 

Again, what are you expecting? This is about DCS WWII, not about any past sim, as I suggested before, maybe you need to go to those boards and ask for an explanation. As for a demo of a stable proven engine they will be using: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/

 

 

the entire topic is about potential customers and why they stay just potential - perfectly on topic. the grounds for "belly ache" is history of performance level, i don't see how this can be disregarded. frankly the only thing that salvages this effort is ED calling the shots, one can not screw up as bad if he is within given framework.

 

Belly aching is belly aching... no matter how you justify it. Its irrelevant based on the fact that this is not the same situation, different players, different time. I wont go back and forth with you any more on this. The thread is about convincing people to climb on board with DCS WWII, not about explaining anything about past releases/sims. If your dont see the differences between now and then, then you havent really followed along close enough.