Full Real - no icons - visibility

[USA_Recon]

Seems that this game has some issues with 'dots' thereby making it very difficult to see and track and aircraft, even when very close. Maybe it has to do with it being first and foremost a 'jet sim engine' where you have radar and locking on targets, etc... and guns only being with a clear shot - but for WW2, I think there will need to be much improvement in LOD.

 

What concerns me as well, is the LOD issue in CloD comes from this same development group ? And much work has gone into fixing it.

 

I hope this is addressed with DCS WW2 or I know for one I'll be very disappointed. Having a great 'EDGE' terrain is all great, but if you can't see aircraft well, it will be a frustrating experience...

[gavagai]

Agree 100%.

 

DCS has a problem with object contrast at lower levels of object detail. The P-51 and 190 are almost impossible to spot at relatively close ranges with a default FoV. You shouldn't need to adopt a telescope view to spot something 1-2km away.

 

Can't wait for DCS WW2, but please, please, please think of some way to improve contact spotting along the way.

:thumbup:

[Royraiden]

Its definitely hard to track them some times but at least the transitions are smooth.

[Bucic]

Smart scaling + my word on the subject:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1400330&highlight=smart+scaling#post1400330

[Mogster]

Compared to ROF I find objects pop in and out of view at what seems like quite close range. Targets just disappear then pop back into view, usually on my 6 and with a firing solution....

[SlipBall]

So I have not had this problem in the orig. released CLod, that tells me that there is something else at play here. Looking in the wrong area, perhaps a hardware problem, or maybe just bad eyes :smartass:

[Royraiden]

So I have not had this problem in the orig. released CLod, that tells me that there is something else at play here. Looking in the wrong area, perhaps a hardware problem, or maybe just bad eyes :smartass:

 

Tell that to Team Fusion and everyone flying Cliffs currently, original version could probably not have this, but the last official version DID have it and it is still present on the current mod patch.It has been fixed on the upcoming one though :lol:

[SlipBall]

Tell that to Team Fusion and everyone flying Cliffs currently, original version could probably not have this, but the last official version DID have it and it is still present on the current mod patch.It has been fixed on the upcoming one though :lol:

 

That's great news Roy!...My reference was the original game and to defend their reputation on dots. It went down like this,

 

some people complained about visibility and so the team broke it...Really llla has a fault, and it is that he listens and acts on peoples complaints. Where sometimes when he knows its already right, he should just tell them to screw off.

 

[VV]75115723[/VV]

Edited September 22, 2013 by GT 5.0

[Wolf Rider]

That's great news Roy!...My reference was the original game and to defend their reputation on dots. It went down like this,

 

some people complained about visibility and so the team broke it...Really llla has a fault, and it is that he listens and acts on peoples complaints. Where sometimes when he knows its right, he should tell them to screw off.

 

 

+1 :thumbup:

[USA_Recon]

That's great news Roy!...My reference was the original game and to defend their reputation on dots. It went down like this,

 

some people complained about visibility and so the team broke it...Really llla has a fault, and it is that he listens and acts on peoples complaints. Where sometimes when he knows its already right, he should just tell them to screw off.

 

[VV]75115723[/VV]

 

The issues isn't with a formation of bombers :)

 

The issue has to do with LOD's (vs. just when you see a dot) of fighters. They literally have such a white background of the sky (it's like a white out in CloD), when the plane turns it disappears even with fully zoomed in view.

 

Team Fusion will be fixing this in the next upcoming patch.

 

I am hoping to get a good answer from him on this subject as it's one that makes or breaks a good game.

[SlipBall]

I'm sure they will be able to get it right, like I said, in the 2011 release of CLod they were perfect. If there is an issue in World, I'm betting they will get it right in WWll

[Bucic]

@MadTommy

Not in every sim. See the post#4.

[julian265]

I bet this mirrors a lot of opinions here, but I thought I'd add it to the pile.

 

I'm just getting in to DCS P-51, but have heaps of experience with online IL-2 with no labels (not for the last year though).

 

IMO DCS world will need to have server adjustable visibility settings for WW2 style combat. It seems that spotting a P-51 from any useful distance requires full zoom, which is unworkable.

 

IL-2 used to have a minimum of 4 pixels per plane (aka a dot - two bright, two dark pixels), that became visible at a certain distance (perhaps the distance was a server setting). This enabled people to spot planes many km away if they paid enough attention - dots weren't obscenely obvious, especially against terrain backgrounds. They changed their contrast dependent on range.

 

When starting out with IL-2, I used to think the dots weren't visible enough - but that changed as I learned the slow scanning technique that was necessary to find them.

 

The problem with IL-2's dot system was that the monitor that you use heavily impacts on the ease of finding dots - to the point where some people would drop their resolution to 1024x768 to help them. I found 1920x1080 manageable, but screens with small dot pitch put the user at a disadvantage. IMO the sim needed to take screen resolution into account (if not dot pitch) when adjusting dot contrast, and perhaps size.

 

The dot system worked much better than what we have now in DCS world, I believe that it should be used, but make settings available so servers can alter visibility settings to their target players.

 

I agree that labels are one way of simulating better visibility of close planes, but I hate how they look, how glaringly obvious they make things, and how they make it almost impossible to escape by hiding.

 

There are so many real accounts of pilots having fleeting combat encounters, and then not being able to see any one else. Also of pilots escaping unseen. The label system defeats this important element of online combat (especially when they are visible through parts of your own plane). This is especially important when you are in an inferior plane, or inferior situation - you need at least a chance of escaping, otherwise things become too predictable and certain planes are not flown.

[White Owl]

I'm sure they will be able to get it right, like I said, in the 2011 release of CLod they were perfect. If there is an issue in World, I'm betting they will get it right in WWll

 

So glad I'm not the only person who remembers that.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well, the current DCS visibilty and LOD transitions dont have anything to do with Luthier or RRG to my knowledge.so the comparison between DCS and the other game isnt necessary at all here.

 

but slipball is correct,...with the first official version of the game without name, the LOD problem wasnt there.they introduced the problem with a patch.

DCS doesnt have this disappearing bug.its hard to spot planes at times, and they are maybe rendered at short distances, but we are speaking of two different problems for two different sims.

so, as DCSWWII will not be CLOD, i really hope so at least!, we should focuse on the current situation, not compare them.

ive heard, read many complaints about spotting planes in DCS.

there are quite a few graphic settings which can make this problem better or worse.FOV settings have quite an impact on this as well.and thats probably, where the DCS devs should have a look first i think.the more you zoom out to get a wider FOV, the closer the contacts will get rendered.they are visible from quite a good distance when your FOV is at about 70°, but thats quite a narrow one, which is definitely not helpfull to keep at least some situational awareness.

the problem starts at an FOV of >=90°, where there is already a big difference in the distance where they are first rendered, compared to the 70°.

 

dont get me wrong, there is definitely room for improvement, but i think when its about close contacts, after an already established tally, during a dogfight, i think dcs does quite good.it shouldnt be toooo easy to keep visual at all times in all situations.real aircraft also sometimes blend into the surrounding quite good, unfortunately!at least they are rendered here in dcs within close to medium distances, and dont disappear all of a sudden right in front of you, and its definitely possible to keep your eyes on the target.

[theGozr]

Dots visibility in DCS is a problem I wish they would adjust this asap :)

[NineLine]

well, the current DCS visibilty and LOD transitions dont have anything to do with Luthier or RRG to my knowledge.so the comparison between DCS and the other game isnt necessary at all here.

 

I will just second this, no other sim as any baring on DCS WWII, that said, if you have an idea on how to improve by referencing another sim thats fine. All that said, some of it comes from practice and adjusting to DCS, coming from another sim may affect your ability to spot aircraft here, I have seen the same affect in FPS, on a new release it takes time for me to get used to new visual cues and such.

 

Thats not to say DCS doesnt need to adjust some what as it is more about visually acquiring targets than radar and such.

[horseback]

I will just second this, no other sim as any baring on DCS WWII, that said, if you have an idea on how to improve by referencing another sim thats fine. All that said, some of it comes from practice and adjusting to DCS, coming from another sim may affect your ability to spot aircraft here, I have seen the same affect in FPS, on a new release it takes time for me to get used to new visual cues and such.

 

Thats not to say DCS doesnt need to adjust some what as it is more about visually acquiring targets than radar and such.

I think that part of the problem is due to the mistaken idea that the human eye is attracted to motion. In reality, what attracts our eyes is the variations in reflected light that motion causes--and that is dependent upon focus, angle, light source and color contrast, all of which are apparently brutally hard to mimic in a 'photo real' simulation.

 

These sorts of sims have to maintain a sort of infinite one-eyed focus, so that you can see everything everywhere on the screen, but it also seems to give every visible object a sort of blurry sameness which hinders motion from attracting our eyes. Add the monotone color/lighting, and moving objects become the next best thing to invisible.

 

We may need some sort of graphics breakthrough to solve the problem, or just require a s**tload more video RAM.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[SlipBall]

My eyes are attracted to motion in a perverted way :P

[gavagai]

@MadTommy

Not in every sim. See the post#4.

 

Yup, Falcon 4 has the best approach for spotting contacts in a computer sim, I think.

[horseback]

My eyes are attracted to motion in a perverted way :P

 

There is nothing perverted about taking notice of a healthy pair of sweater puppies. But there again, we have changing angles and reflectances...

 

cheers

 

horseback

[Tbag]

I mostly fly BS, but I find the visibility of other a/c well done. In RL, it is incredibly hard to spot an aircraft in the sky, especially when you look at it from the top.

[Suchacz]

I totally agree, visibility of distant air objects need some tweaking. But as I wrote elsewhere, adjustement of icons/labels in labels.lua can be a temporary solution for WWII combat, where the whole situational awareness depends on your Mk1 Eyeball...

 

Check this out:

The symbol between those " " represents the mark that marks the unit position. The ' symbol is the smallest mark possible, if you want it bigger(more visible) you can put there anything you like, for example "o" or "0" or "*" and so on. Or you can change a color to make it less visible, for example {78, 78, 49} for military green.

 

With this color and ' mark it will look like this>

 

 

Try this settings to make the labels harder to find, with no description about the unit. Weapon labels are disabled, ground and air units' mark will appear at 8km, naval units' at 10km.

 

-- Label parameters
-- Copyright (C) 2004, Eagle Dynamics.

AirOn = true
GroundOn = true
NavyOn = true
WeaponOn = true

-- Label max distance depends on graphics visibility range option value
-- For low �E40000.0 m
-- For medium �E50000.0 m
-- For high �E80000.0 m

---------------------------------
-- Label text format symbols
-- %N - name of object
-- %D - distance to object
-- %P - pilot name
-- %n - new line 
-- %% - symbol '%'
-- %x, where x is not NDPn% - symbol 'x'
-- %C - extended info for vehicle's and ship's weapon systems
------------------------------------------
-- Example
-- labelFormat[5000] = "Name: %N%nDistance: %D%n Pilot: %P"
-- up to 5km label is:
-- Name: Su-33
-- Distance: 30km
-- Pilot: Pilot1

AirFormat = {}
AirFormat[10] = ""
AirFormat[5000] = "'"
AirFormat[8000] = "'"
AirFormat[20000] = ""
AirFormat[30000] = ""

GroundFormat = {}
GroundFormat[5000] = "'"
GroundFormat[8000] = "'"
GroundFormat[20000] = ""

NavyFormat = {}
NavyFormat[10000] = "'"
NavyFormat[20000] = ""
NavyFormat[40000] = ""

WeaponFormat = {}
WeaponFormat[5000] = ""
WeaponFormat[10000] = ""
WeaponFormat[20000] = ""

-- Colors in {red, green, blue} format, volume from 0 up to 255

ColorAliesSide = {78, 78, 49}
ColorEnemiesSide = {78, 78, 49} -- put there any RGB you like

This is not ideal solution because the dot/label is not scalable, it has the same size at 8 km away as well as in front of your prop...

Edited November 7, 2013 by Suchacz

[NoJoe]

I'm with Tbag here, I like the visibility of other planes as it is. It's really hard to pick out planes in real life, even when you know where to look for them. 3 miles is about the limit for me to spot another Cessna in the air; any further and there's a good chance I won't be able to find them.

 

For what it's worth.

 

--NoJoe

[Suchacz]

There is one more thing to think about: Reality has bigger resolution and greater FOV than our displays, that is the main limitation of sims :D

 

And this is the main thing to keep in mind if you are comparing a sim and real life experience.