The EDGE Landscape SDK

[luthier1]

Would it be possible to use this editor to expand the edges of an already existing map? I'm thinking of how much we want just a few airbases in Southern England. I'm thinking that maybe instead of creating a wholly new map, we could make the existing map larger.

 

A map in EDGE actually has real-world coordinated connected to a virtual globe. It has constraints.

 

You could create your own landscape project that borders an existing map.

 

Then you could just join the two projects together, and have them combined.

 

That's how, for example, you could join forces between multiple creators working on the same map. Just split it, then join it.

 

Theoretically you could do silly things like take Normandy, make Scotland, and make Ruhr, then join them together. You'd be able to take off from Scotland, climb, fly over barren nothing below, cross over pretty Normandy, fly over some more nothing, bomb a factory, and then go back home.

 

Does this mean that maps will always have to be submitted to ED or RRG to be released? (for quality control etc.) Or is map compilation just something that will be made available at a later date when it is ready for the public.

 

We're fine with anyone doing what they like, as long as they don't release it commercially.

 

Commercial EDGE maps are theoretically also fine, but that kind of thing needs a separate discussion.

 

Biggest problem is splitting up the community. Say company A makes a commercial North Africa add-on, and company B makes a commercial Kursk. What then? Everyone has to buy it, or they can't play together; or did they buy maps that cannot be flown over online?

 

Our tentative not final temporary up-in-the-air answer is that perhaps commercial map packs cannot happen.

 

Same reason we won't really be selling AI-only planes. If we have a new plane out, everyone should be able to see it, not everyone should be able to fly it. That's fine for MP. If Joe bought the new A6M Zero but Bill didn't, Bill will still see Joe zip around online since he got the external model for free, just not the cockpit.

 

If Joe buys Iwo Jima, but Bill doesn't, what happens then?

 

Until we figure this out, with backer and community input, we don't want some enterprising fan running off and releasing a half-baked Sicily for 10 bucks.

 

Secondly, EDGE is kind of a stand-alone engine that creates an all-around landscape model in an open format. Theoretically, you could take that landscape you created and put it into any other game. I don't know if we can prevent that altogether, but for now, let's just thread lightly.

 

Until DCS WWII alpha is available to backers, you won't really have anywhere to put your landscape anyway. And until it's released, the general public won't be able to fly over it either. As it stands right now, the only product that supports EDGE and that can use landscapes created with SDK is Europe 1944.

 

In short, we're not opposed to people doing what they want at all! We're just not sure how to approach a commercial side of those projects YET, so we'll err on the side of caution for now.

 

Could you elaborate a bit? What else will be needed to make new, fully functional map for DCS World/WW2? If SDK isn't enough, then what's the point of releasing it?

 

Like I said above, you'll have all the tools. It's just where would you put your landscape once it's released?

[Fudge]

The SDK does not have its own modeling tools.

 

You will need to import a 3D model created elsewhere.

 

 

Sorry I didn't mean it having it's own set of modelling tools, but the ability to convert more common formats. Currently it seems you need 3DS max for the ED plugins to get anything into DCS world. In the video it sounded like the SDK would be capable of taking in other files types.

[empeck]

I understand now. Thank you.

[SkateZilla]

In the video it sounds like you can import objects and the SDK will convert them to be DCS ready. Does this mean the ED plugins wont be required and (even better) you wont require a copy of 3DS Max?

 

Pretty sure meshes still need to be built, textured, and animated in 3ds Max and exported to the EDM Container Format, then Imported into the Landscape Editor as an EDM Object.

[Bucic]

Luthier1 mentioned the 'day one'. What is supposed release date?

 

Is Blender out of question?

Edited October 1, 2013 by Bucic

[Blaze]

Pretty sure meshes still need to be built, textured, and animated in 3ds Max and exported to the EDM Container Format, then Imported into the Landscape Editor as an EDM Object.

 

This.

 

Sent from my Note II using Tapatalk 2.

[VincentLaw]

We're fine with anyone doing what they like, as long as they don't release it commercially. [...]Until we figure this out, with backer and community input, we don't want some enterprising fan running off and releasing a half-baked Sicily for 10 bucks[...]

If I do any mapping, it will absolutely be no more than quarter-baked, just for fun, but it would absolutely be for free.

 

Biggest problem is splitting up the community. Say company A makes a commercial North Africa add-on, and company B makes a commercial Kursk. What then? Everyone has to buy it, or they can't play together; or did they buy maps that cannot be flown over online?

I agree with this, but wonder how it might work with ED's policy on maps. Last time I checked, they intend on selling Nevada as a terrain module, but what if it turns out that Nevada can be plugged into DCS WWII? Then company A and company B can "officially" sell North Africa and Kursk for DCS: World, and then players might choose to plug them (or Nevada) into WWII. Edited October 1, 2013 by VincentLaw

[derelor]

IMHO every aircraft AND terrain should be able to operate both in DCS World and DCS WWII.

[NineLine]

IMHO every aircraft AND terrain should be able to operate both in DCS World and DCS WWII.

 

 

And I thought it was stated at the beginning of this project that everything would be cross compatible... (barring the "Everything is subject to change" rule of course)

[Hans-Joachim Marseille]

I thought ... assumption is the mother of all f...

No more surprises please this week (^,^)

[VincentLaw]

Luthier1 mentioned the 'day one'. What is supposed release date?

 

Is Blender out of question?

Blender can be used to create models, but they must be converted to EDM format using 3ds Max. If you were on a team where someone else was willing to convert the models for you, that wouldn't really be a problem.

[klem]

I don't get it. $1 pledges don't have alpha access but they have access to this? Should be at least $10+

 

Well it seems to me the $1 backers won't get the game free as the higher backers will and I wonder what they can do with the SDK if they don't have Alpha access.

 

Mind you there's a lot I don't understand yet.

 

Luthier, I once did some work in FSX where I used G-max (its free) for 3D objects like buildings. Would a full package like 3DS Max be necessary (it's not free)?

[SilentEagle]

However the ability to compile the final map and to let tanks drive or planes fly over the new landscape will not be released out. So, many features that relate to the terrain's implementation within the game will not be a part of the SDK.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would make it impossible for developers to test their creations in the simulator. That seems pretty counterproductive. As a developer myself, I find this part hard to understand. If the concern is an oversaturation of mediocre or "half-baked" terrains, why release the tools to all backers in the first place. Why not just just to those with serious interest and capability, such as how 3rd party development of aircraft is currently operating?

 

If a user wanted to create a free terrain or even one that was only used by himself, would he really need to have ED/RRG convert it for him. What about every time he wanted to make a change?

[VincentLaw]

Luthier, I once did some work in FSX where I used G-max (its free) for 3D objects like buildings. Would a full package like 3DS Max be necessary (it's not free)?

I think this problem lies in ED's hands, not RRG's. The problem is that ED uses a proprietary model format (.edm) in DCS. All models have to be converted to this format using the official plugin (available here) which only works with 3dsMax. (but also only for specific versions of 3ds Max, so check before you get a license.) While it would technically be possible to make .edm models without 3ds Max, it would require ED to make new plugins that support a different program, or a standalone model converter, which I don't expect them to spend the resources doing, and reverse engineering the model format to make your own converter would probably violate a EULA or something.

 

Otherwise, see my previous post.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would make it impossible for developers to test their creations in the simulator.

Yes, I can see plenty of "oops, I didn't realize that wall was floating half a meter in the air," "why are airplanes randomly exploding when they use that runway," or "why did all those tanks get into a giant pile trying to cross that bridge?" Edited October 1, 2013 by VincentLaw

[Fudge]

Pretty sure meshes still need to be built, textured, and animated in 3ds Max and exported to the EDM Container Format, then Imported into the Landscape Editor as an EDM Object.

 

Thanks for the response. Hopefully 3DS max wont always be a requirement.

[SkateZilla]

Thanks for the response. Hopefully 3DS max wont always be a requirement.

 

3DS Max will always be a requirement, I seriously doubt ED will ever build their own "3d Software Suite".

 

Every developer in the gaming industry, either uses 3DS Max, Maya, or some other Top Tier 3d Suite

[klem]

I think this problem lies in ED's hands, not RRG's. The problem is that ED uses a proprietary model format (.edm) in DCS. All models have to be converted to this format using the official plugin (available here) which only works with 3dsMax. (but also only for specific versions of 3ds Max, so check before you get a license.) While it would technically be possible to make .edm models without 3ds Max, it would require ED to make new plugins that support a different program, or a standalone model converter, which I don't expect them to spend the resources doing, and reverse engineering the model format to make your own converter would probably violate a EULA or something.

 

Otherwise, see my previous post.

 

Yes, I can see plenty of "oops, I didn't realize that wall was floating half a meter in the air," "why are airplanes randomly exploding when they use that runway," or "why did all those tanks get into a giant pile trying to cross that bridge?"

 

OK, thanks for the info.

[SkateZilla]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would make it impossible for developers to test their creations in the simulator. That seems pretty counterproductive. As a developer myself, I find this part hard to understand. If the concern is an oversaturation of mediocre or "half-baked" terrains, why release the tools to all backers in the first place. Why not just just to those with serious interest and capability, such as how 3rd party development of aircraft is currently operating?

 

If a user wanted to create a free terrain or even one that was only used by himself, would he really need to have ED/RRG convert it for him. What about every time he wanted to make a change?

 

3rd Party Devs will prolly have access to everything? (hopefully).

 

However the RRG Backers may be limited to only building and submitting to RRG, or whatever method is set in place.

 

no idea... We'll see soon enough.

[VincentLaw]

3DS Max will always be a requirement, I seriously doubt ED will ever build their own "3d Software Suite".

 

Every developer in the gaming industry, either uses 3DS Max, Maya, or some other Top Tier 3d Suite

Converting model formats doesn't necessarily require a full custom 3d software suite. Some other game I made models for had a standalone model converter. It just took input models saved in a specific, widely available, format and output them into the proprietary format without any editing tools or anything. It just required certain materials to have comments in them specifying what they were supposed to be. So you could basically use any modeling program to make models for the game.

[cichlidfan]

no idea... We'll see soon enough.

 

Face it, ED/RRG probably don't know how everything is going to work either.

[SkateZilla]

You still have to have one of the top teir Suites to build the model.

 

You can build in Maya, or whatever, convert to 3DS Container, open in Trial Version of Max, do what you gotta do, or pay a $xxx Monthly License Fee instead of the outright $2000-3000 for a Full License, or get a Student Version.

 

or Build it, Export it, have someone else import it, UV Unwrap, apply ED Shaders, animate, damage, destroy, and export.

Edited October 1, 2013 by SkateZilla

[empeck]

Every developer in the gaming industry, either uses 3DS Max, Maya, or some other Top Tier 3d Suite

 

This is not true. Many of high end 3d engines uses standard 3d file formats - FBX or Collada.

 

FBX is used in Unreal Engine 3, Unity3d, and many others.

 

Example:

 

http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/FBXPipeline.html

 

FBX can be exported from 3ds max, Maya, Softimage, Modo, Blender and many other 3d packages.

[HungaroJET]

 

FBX can be exported from 3ds max, Maya, Softimage, Modo, Blender and many other 3d packages.

 

Yeah, but ED uses another format: EDM you know

 

EDM can be exported from 3DS MAX

I think you will able to export EDM from Maya, Softimage, Modo, Blender and many other 3D programs as well...if...you need only the EDM plugin for those 3D programs;)

[empeck]

Yeah, but ED uses another format: EDM you know

 

EDM can be exported from 3DS MAX

I think you will able to export EDM from Maya, Softimage, Modo, Blender and many other 3D programs as well...if...you need only the plugin for those 3D programs;)

 

Of course I know that. I was just pointing that SkateZilla was wrong about 'the gaming industry'.

 

I also doubt that ED will expand their support for other 3d programs.

[Fudge]

3DS Max will always be a requirement, I seriously doubt ED will ever build their own "3d Software Suite".

 

Would not really have expected ED to create and then release their own 3d suite. Plugin wise it is nice to have a choice of programs to use though. Apart from documentation, UV tools and range of plugins my experience with max was not positive.

 

It's also doesn't seem possible to purchase an older version of 3ds max. As a student the oldest version you can get 2011 (goes up each year).

 

Maybe a community plugin will arise at some point in the future as with the unreal 3 engine, CryEngine and Arma 2.

 

 

You still have to have one of the top teir Suites to build the model.

 

You can build in Maya, or whatever, convert to 3DS Container, open in Trial Version of Max, do what you gotta do, or pay a $xxx Monthly License Fee instead of the outright $2000-3000 for a Full License, or get a Student Version.

 

or Build it, Export it, have someone else import it, UV Unwrap, apply ED Shaders, animate, damage, destroy, and export.

 

That's my plan with my current little mod project. Pretty much just using max as a converter when the time comes. I didn't know about the monthly fee option, but could be ideal for me.