DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[Solty]

P-38L maybe. huh?! :music_whistling:

 

 

P-37 was a modernised P-36 Hawk, which never entered production.

Typo.:pilotfly:

:smartass:

Kurfürst: According to your sources, what plane was the most common adversary of the Mk IXc throughout its operational history? If it was a pie chart, how much percentage would the 109 K get?

 

I truly admire your knowledge about these aircraft, but calling the Tempest a "ridiculously rare uber plane that turned up in insignificant numbers at the very end of the war" made me laugh out loud. The Tempest reached the frontline half a year before the 109K and there was 1700 built in total as opposed to the 1593 109K-s. Yet, you wouldn't use the same expressions for the Kurfürst, would you?

Not to mention that in 1944 only over 500 K4's were built and some sources say that most of them went to the eastern front, compared to multiple G6 and G14 subersions which reached units at the Western front.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Solty

[Krupi]

And its perfectly historical to get the IXc. After all in everywhere but the most uninformed/biased circles everyone knows we are getting the K-4's main rival at the end of 1944, the +18 lbs Spitfire IXc and the P-51D-25. We are only missing the P-47D in fact.

 

Now, I can perfectly understand why some would want ridiculously rare and 'uber' planes like the XIV or the Tempest that turned up in insignificant, penny packet numbers at the very end of the conflict, but luckily, the correct and historical choice was already made.

 

I am very amused by your use of the word "biased" given your reasoning if the XIV and Tempest were insignificant then the same could of course be said for the D9 and K4 they were rare compared to the number of previous variants that formed the bulk of both airforces.

 

However the fact remains that when the Tempest, XI, Kurfürst and Dora arrived the allies had gone from air superiority to air supremacy, no one can argue that the biggest threat to the RAF from September to the end of the war was not the Luftwaffe instead it was flak that concerned pilots and the figures confirm this.

 

So I agree the Tempest and XIVs had as little impact to the war as just as the Dora, Kurfürst and 262 had little to no impact.

[Krupi]

Kurfürst: According to your sources, what plane was the most common adversary of the Mk IXc throughout its operational history? If it was a pie chart, how much percentage would the 109 K get?

 

I truly admire your knowledge about these aircraft, but calling the Tempest a "ridiculously rare uber plane that turned up in insignificant numbers at the very end of the war" made me laugh out loud. The Tempest reached the frontline half a year before the 109K and there was 1700 built in total as opposed to the 1593 109K-s. Yet, you wouldn't use the same expressions for the Kurfürst, would you?

 

Of course he wouldn't however the biggest impact both the Tempest and XIVs had was to nullify the threat of flying bombs :D

 

If the flying bombs weren't used the Tempest and XIVs would have been at the frontline quicker and perhaps there impact great, however as I previously explained this is a mute point given the air supremacy held by the allies in 1944

 

Also remember that the K4 had to be shared out on two fronts while the Tempest and XIVs only had one.

[bart]

Well, Im hoping for a release sooner rather than later, hopefully then all these nit picking arguments on this thread will calm down a bit.

 

I for one really dont mind what Mk Spitfire ED gives us, what order the rivets are on the wings or how many were built etc etc. I have faith in ED that what they will give us will be a true as possible and within the limitations of DCS a great representation of a ledgend and a great module to fly, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

 

Heres hoping for some news on the old girl later today :)

[Kurfürst]

To the first question, I would say the Opel Blitz and English sheep would definitely dominate that pie chart. More seriously, there is no escape from what is there and what is not on the late 1944 2nd TAF OOB and equipment tables.

 

Secondly, I am curious what you would call a plane that turned up in the frontlines in the end of 1944 and never amounted to more than about 50-60 in service, i.e. the Tempest. Hell, there were more 262s around then Tempests and XIVs combined.

 

But then, I might be wrong. Would you list to me, for my enlightenment

 

a) number of Tempest on operational strenght during 1944 (that is, w/o reserves, no aircraft sitting in storage)

b) the number of aircraft claims made by Tempest per month to see their operational significance

 

Maybe then we can see a clearer picture of the Tempest's "significane" as a fighter plane (which doesn't change the fact that it's my fav RAF fighter at the same time).

[Kurfürst]

Typo.:pilotfly:

:smartass:

 

Not to mention that in 1944 only over 500 K4's were built and some sources say that most of them went to the eastern front, compared to multiple G6 and G14 subersions which reached units at the Western front.

 

854 to be precise, compared to about 300 Mk XIV... in about 5 Squadrons, the 1st one IICR deployed to continent in October 1944 (i.e. 12 planes) with another two or three in November and December 1944. That's less than 50 in operation in any practical range to the frontlines. Hugely significant impact compared to the cc 30 Mk IX/XVI Sqns the 2nd TAF employed there at the same time, isn't it. And, I'd like to know which units operated the K-4 on the EF in 1944.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Kurfürst

[Reflected]

The Mk IX Spit entered service in late 1942. Yes, it was in service in 1944, and it did face 109 K-s, but if these amounted to more than 2% of the aircraft encountered in total by Mk IXs, I will get naked and run around the city center. The biggest chunk there would be Fritzes and Gustavs, as well as Antons. This is my point.

 

1944 didn't end in April when the Tempest entered service, and although I don't have any docs about how many were in service at a time, 50-60 seems very dubious provided there were more than 1500 built in total. 8 Squadrons used them in WW2.

 

You probably know better than I do that it was not a pure fighter, so what point would listing aerial victories make?

[Krupi]

According to this website there were 8 operational squadrons of Tempest

 

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/action/units

 

So according to you they only had 8.5 aircraft each, pretty sure you will find that a squadron actually had ~20 aircraft :D

 

Furthermore figures don't give us the whole story, even if every single 109 from 1944 had been a K4 it still wouldn't have made up for the lack of pilots and fuel.

 

It was unfortunate that such an irrelevant variant of the 109 was chosen and the only solution to this is either VEAO'S XIV or someone makes the 109G6 (my preferred choice) or later which makes more sense for Normandy.

 

Don't forget we are getting the ME262 whose main opposition was...? Yes you guessed it the Tempest and XIVs

Edited July 29, 2016 by Krupi
Corrected No.

[NineLine]

At this point it doesnt matter, these are the aircraft we have right now. Going over these same facts repeatedly isnt going to change that right now. Lets keep the discussion on the Spitfire module please.

[TwilightZone]

.......looking good, can't wait...... ;-)

[SeldomSeen]

:thumbup:

[NeilWillis]

Bunyap, how can you do that to us!

 

I already really really want the Spitfire IXc. Now I really really really really really want it - a lot!

 

Seriously though, as always, a very well presented and detailed review. Thanks.

[austenb]

Two Reg numbers MH434 and MH101 are we getting two or will there be squadron variations?

[Cripple]

Two Reg numbers MH434 and MH101 are we getting two or will there be squadron variations?

 

Probably just different skins. I imagine people will make their own skins too.

[JST]

Ah yes, the wide range of RAF camouflage and markings to explore.

 

:hehe:

 

:sleep:

[Krupi]

Ah yes, the wide range of RAF camouflage and markings to explore.

 

:hehe:

 

:sleep:

 

:megalol:

 

Why does bad guy equipment always look so cool :D

[flare2000x]

While there's not much variety I love the RAF camo. Using your own markings is fun too, hope we don't get stupid 01-0 or whatever, half the time we fly one! ED should make it so you can pick your own skin and letters in multiplayer.

 

posted from mobile, excuse stupid errors please!

[Krupi]

 

:music_whistling:

 

I read that the IXe was fitted with rockets, however I didn't know the IXc was also what I read suggested only two rockets were fitted operationally not 4...

 

 

Rockets were apparently used by No.74 Squadron, another reason for having an IXe :cry:

 

Rockets and Bombs in the same load-out!

Edited July 31, 2016 by Krupi

[klem]

...although....

 

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html/3

 

"The Type C and E wings were structurally identical, differing only in armament installation.

This diagram shows the layout of cannon and .5″ M2 Browning installation in the latter."

 

"An interesting curiosity is that several C-wing Spitfires LF Mk. IX of No. 485 (New Zealand) Squadron were converted to carry the Hispanos and .50 Brownings just before D-Day."

 

<cough> Please Sir, may I transfer to 485 Squadron??

[Krupi]

Even more interesting is the following paragraph from this article

 

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/sorting-out-the-e-american-armament-for-the-spitfire-mk-ixxvi.html

 

"The first Spitfire LF Mk. XVI, MJ556, flew in December 1943 and carried “C”-type armament. The squadrons did not start receiving the new mark until the beginning of October 1944, when mass production of this variant commenced at the Castle Bromwich factory. During winter 1944-1945, LF Mk. XVIE replaced the LF Mk. IX as the most common fighter type in the 2nd TAF on the Continent."

 

I wasn't aware that the XVI ever became the most common type, very interesting.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Krupi

[Krupi]

"It is generally believed that all production examples of the Mk. XVI carried the “American” armament. This is, however, difficult to confirm with certainity. Confusingly, the designation “LF. XVIE” first appeared in CBAF records around May-June 1945. The first low-back Mk. XVI, SM410, left CBAF for trials on 30 March 1945, so it is possible that at the time of its introduction, the “E” suffix was intended to refer to the low-back Spitfire and/or the previously mentioned changes in wing plumbing incorporated in that variant. Perhaps we’ll never know."

 

I thought the "low backs" arrived earlier than that, they really would have been uncommon until the very end.

[Nerd1000]

Even more interesting is the following paragraph from this article

 

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/sorting-out-the-e-american-armament-for-the-spitfire-mk-ixxvi.html

 

"The first Spitfire LF Mk. XVI, MJ556, flew in December 1943 and carried “C”-type armament. The squadrons did not start receiving the new mark until the beginning of October 1944, when mass production of this variant commenced at the Castle Bromwich factory. During winter 1944-1945, LF Mk. XVIE replaced the LF Mk. IX as the most common fighter type in the 2nd TAF on the Continent."

 

I wasn't aware that the XVI ever became the most common type, very interesting.

My suspicion is that by 1944 Merlin 266s from the US were available in greater numbers than UK-built Merlin 66, leading to most late war production of merlin spitfires being Mk XVIs (also remember that 2-stage Griffon versions were ready, so Supermarine were probably scaling back Mk IX production to make room for Mk XIVs).

[Krupi]

My suspicion is that by 1944 Merlin 266s from the US were available in greater numbers than UK-built Merlin 66, leading to most late war production of merlin spitfires being Mk XVIs (also remember that 2-stage Griffon versions were ready, so Supermarine were probably scaling back Mk IX production to make room for Mk XIVs).

 

Yes that makes a lot of sense :thumbup:

[Krupi]

My suspicion is that by 1944 Merlin 266s from the US were available in greater numbers than UK-built Merlin 66, leading to most late war production of merlin spitfires being Mk XVIs (also remember that 2-stage Griffon versions were ready, so Supermarine were probably scaling back Mk IX production to make room for Mk XIVs).

 

What is also interesting is that the XVI became the most common aircraft and yet only around a 1000 produced, more XIV were manufactured by the end!

[bart]

Just reminding myself what she's going to look like :D

 

It's been nearly 16 weeks since we saw this! the old girl has to be close now!!