DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[Yo-Yo]

Special tests conducted to determined pros and cons of clipped wings shows significantly reduced maximal climb rate and ceiling (for about 5-6%%). The maximal speed though did not change (within measurement error margins).

Overall climb time to 30k increases up to 10%.

 

And overall roll tate advantage was about 40%. To be accurate, it must be mentioned that the roll rate was measured not as maximal rotational speed during the roll but as a time from -30 to 30 deg reverse including at least acceleration period.

[NineLine]

I am afraid that somebody will ask an option to switch between wing types during a sortie...

 

Well that is in ED's power to control ;)

[MiloMorai]

Precisely. I remember reading just the same in Pierre Clostermann`s "Le Grande Cirque". These Spits earned their nickname "clipped, cropped, clapped". The RAF pilots weren`t happy with the results at all.

 

You remember WRONG. The ccc Spitfires were Mk Vs.

[Reflected]

You remember WRONG. The ccc Spitfires were Mk Vs.

 

Yes they were Mk V-s. . But do you think the clipped version of the MkIX was much different?

[Talisman_VR]

Special tests conducted to determined pros and cons of clipped wings shows significantly reduced maximal climb rate and ceiling (for about 5-6%%). The maximal speed though did not change (within measurement error margins).

Overall climb time to 30k increases up to 10%.

 

And overall roll tate advantage was about 40%. To be accurate, it must be mentioned that the roll rate was measured not as maximal rotational speed during the roll but as a time from -30 to 30 deg reverse including at least acceleration period.

 

Thanks very much for responding Yo-Yo, it is very much appreciated.

Regarding the max climb rate and ceiling, I would not normally expect to race a Bf 109 or FW to 30K to win a dog fight in a Low Fighter version of the Spit Mk IX. For historic lower level fast and short combat in temperate climate weather conditions, I would much rather have the more agile clip wing version, if I was given a choice. If I was on high level bomber escort duty I would take the P51D, but even then I would not be able to out-climb the Bf 109; however, I would already have the altitude, so not too much to worry about there.

 

Though not a consideration for the devs, as a customer, I believe that the Spit Mk IX from DCS is an older aircraft than the currently available LW types (Dora and 109K), so the Mk IX will already be trying to punch above its weight on WWII MP competitive combat servers when it is released (109K will still out-climb Spit with normal wing tips I believe). Therefore, I would at least like to have the advantages of the Spit clipped wing.

 

Any way, theoretically, if you had to repeatedly combat the 109K or Dora between 0-20k Yo-Yo, and your life depended on it, would you take the DCS Mk IX LF clip wing or one with wing tips? I don't need you to answer, but I will go with whatever you would choose in such a situation because I am sure you know more about this than me :thumbup:

 

I presume that the clip wing version is viable in terms of DCS producing an accurate quality product. If not, I suppose the normal wing will have to suffice and that is perfectly understandable.

 

Many thanks for the WWII project work.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[NRG-Vampire]

I am afraid that somebody will ask an option to switch between wing types during a sortie...

:D

 

yeah, that's dead sure Dmitry but that won't be me :hehe:

but the solution to your concern imho: :laugh: i think you should invent a new spitfire with variable-sweep wings :rotflmao:

[Talisman_VR]

Yet for some reason actual WW2 RAF Spitfire pilots were not all that enthusiastic about the clipped wing variant. The modificiation was supposed to counter the Fw 190s great superiority in roll, yet it practice it just didn't bring the plane on par with the 190, but at the same time degraded its best advantages over it.

 

It was niche modification, that's get hyped all over whereas in reality it did not see much use in operations due to its overall impracticality, except where structural issues with the wing while carrying bombs necessitated it.

 

Hi Kurfurst,

 

Initially with the Mk V, but we are talking about the Mk IX. Any way, strange then that the clipped wing went on to be used in later versions of the Spitfire all the way up to the last version. Perhaps something was known about this that has passed you by.

I am sure this was something a bit more than what you call a 'niche modification'. I would say that it ended up as part of the natural development of a fighter in a fast moving competitive combat environment.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Hummingbird]

 

With a slight reduction in turn, but still a WINNING turn performance, and people want to say no thanks :lol:

 

That is debatable, the loss of the wing tips would've seriously affected the turn performance of the Spitfire, and the contemporary 109's were already close to it as pr. the words of the pilots who fly both today.

 

But I digress...

[Talisman_VR]

That is debatable, the loss of the wing tips would've seriously affected the turn performance of the Spitfire, and the contemporary 109's were already close to it as pr. the words of the pilots who fly both today.

 

But I digress...

 

Seriously?

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Hummingbird]

Seriously?

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Very serious :)

 

But of course you are free to believe that the 109 was "embarrased" by its slats :D

[NineLine]

Lets not drift off topic...

 

[Hummingbird]

Lets not drift off topic...

 

 

 

:D

[Cripple]

Am I reading the correct forum? People saying they actually want an aircraft with less performance for combat :helpsmilie:

 

Yes.

 

Because I'm paying to play a *game*, not scooting over Frog-land circa 1944... and, if I was, I'd likely fly-what-I-was-bloody-given. :smilewink:

 

However, as I said previously, assuming I had the full choice of my mission types and aircraft load-out (cos the RAF worked like that, didn't it?), I'd be flying the top-cover for you mud-worm-chaps... with full wings.:thumbup:

[Cripple]

I am afraid that somebody will ask an option to switch between wing types during a sortie...

 

Tsk! There's an easy solution to this.... one of each!

 

There you go; Judgement of Solomon. Both parties are now happy, and can admire their perfect spitfire from opposite sides. :thumbup:

[Solty]

Thanks very much for responding Yo-Yo, it is very much appreciated.

Regarding the max climb rate and ceiling, I would not normally expect to race a Bf 109 or FW to 30K to win a dog fight in a Low Fighter version of the Spit Mk IX. For historic lower level fast and short combat in temperate climate weather conditions, I would much rather have the more agile clip wing version, if I was given a choice. If I was on high level bomber escort duty I would take the P51D, but even then I would not be able to out-climb the Bf 109; however, I would already have the altitude, so not too much to worry about there.

 

Though not a consideration for the devs, as a customer, I believe that the Spit Mk IX from DCS is an older aircraft than the currently available LW types (Dora and 109K), so the Mk IX will already be trying to punch above its weight on WWII MP competitive combat servers when it is released (109K will still out-climb Spit with normal wing tips I believe). Therefore, I would at least like to have the advantages of the Spit clipped wing.

 

Any way, theoretically, if you had to repeatedly combat the 109K or Dora between 0-20k Yo-Yo, and your life depended on it, would you take the DCS Mk IX LF clip wing or one with wing tips? I don't need you to answer, but I will go with whatever you would choose in such a situation because I am sure you know more about this than me :thumbup:

 

I presume that the clip wing version is viable in terms of DCS producing an accurate quality product. If not, I suppose the normal wing will have to suffice and that is perfectly understandable.

 

Many thanks for the WWII project work.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Mate. Even with clipped wings you would be slower than both. But with elliptic wing u will be away better turning than both and have a roll rate similar to the K4.

 

You will also have superior climb rate of 29m/s because it is going to be a 25lbs version.

[Friedrich-4B]

Hi Kurfurst,

 

Initially with the Mk V, but we are talking about the Mk IX. Any way, strange then that the clipped wing went on to be used in later versions of the Spitfire all the way up to the last version. Perhaps something was known about this that has passed you by.

I am sure this was something a bit more than what you call a 'niche modification'. I would say that it ended up as part of the natural development of a fighter in a fast moving competitive combat environment.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

This "issue" about the clipped wings has already been canvassed in this thread and is based on reports and comments that didn't relate to the L.F. Mk IX, except in a most general sense. The belief that pilots didn't like the clipped wings, for example, is based on a small survey of Mk V pilots in which 5 out of 6 respondents considered the modification to be an improvement, while apparently those from an unspecified squadron didn't. The rest of the report, including the conclusions, is missing, so no real help there.

 

As it is, the majority of 2 TAF's Spitfire L.F Mk IXs retained the normal wingtips; the main "clipped" variant in 2 TAF service was the L.F Mk. XVI, the majority of which were built with clipped wings. Later in the war, F. Mk. XIVs were also using clipped wings. AFAIK there were no official reports on the L.F Mk. IX's flight qualities and performance with clipped wings, so the best available information is based on Mk V tests:

 

Special tests conducted to determined pros and cons of clipped wings shows significantly reduced maximal climb rate and ceiling (for about 5-6%%). The maximal speed though did not change (within measurement error margins).

Overall climb time to 30k increases up to 10%.

 

And overall roll tate advantage was about 40%. To be accurate, it must be mentioned that the roll rate was measured not as maximal rotational speed during the roll but as a time from -30 to 30 deg reverse including at least acceleration period.

 

Precisely. I remember reading just the same in Pierre Clostermann`s "Le Grande Cirque". These Spits earned their nickname "clipped, cropped, clapped". The RAF pilots weren`t happy with the results at all.

 

Quite understandably so. Imagine you are facing the 190. You have the option to sit in a plane that is not as fast, and rolls worse, but can easily outturn it. Or option b: you have a plane that is almost as fast, and rolls almost as well as the 190 (still worse though), but now you can`t even outturn it?

 

The reason for the "clipped. cropped, clapped" legend was because many of the Spitfire Vbs that were modified to use the Merlin 45M or 55M, together with the clipped wingtips, were elderly airframes that had seen better days: one of them, for example, was W3834. Built in September 1941, it had already served on five squadrons, before being allocated to 401(Canadian) Sqn in July 1943. "Cropped" referred to the cropped, low altitude rated supercharger impeller - "clipped" and "clapped" for obvious reasons.

 

None of this has much to do with the 1944 vintage L.F. IX that was a new-build airframe, using the Merlin 66 with a 2-stage, 2-speed supercharger that used different gear ratios, rather than a cropped impeller, to achieve its medium to low altitude rating.

 

Back to Ed's Spitfire L.F. Mk. IX...for mind, getting the basics right is the most important part; variations and options can then be added. Anyway, VEAO is modelling the clipped wing XIV, so we get the best of both variations.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Friedrich-4/B
spelling

[ShadowFrost]

In reply to a few older comments back...

 

If we can't change our wing type in flight could we have one clipped wing and one full wing? :)

Edited February 12, 2016 by ShadowFrost

[Yo-Yo]

In reply to a few older comments back...

 

If we can't change our wing type in flight could we have one clipped wing and one full wing? :)

 

Yes, just collide a truck precisely with one wingtip before takeoff.

[Orava]

In reply to a few older comments back...

 

If we can't change our wing type in flight could we have one clipped wing and one full wing? :)

 

Or I can saw that wing with my Fockewulf

[Kurfürst]

Yes, just collide a truck precisely with one wingtip before takeoff.

 

:megalol:

[ShadowFrost]

Yes, just collide a truck precisely with one wingtip before takeoff.

 

For some reason my crew chief doesn't like that idea...

 

Or I can saw that wing with my Fockewulf

 

and for other reasons my crew chief is seriously against your idea..

[Farlander]

Umm..

 

[Captain Orso]

:megalol: That guy at the end in the bakka-bomb, that's sounds like me in the 51 :D

[klem]

The clipped wing "legend" really came from the MkV, already mentioned several times, in a desperate attempt to combat the FW190.

 

I can't remember any performance comparisons or preferences with the clipped/unclipped wings of the MkIX in the multitude of autobiographies I've read, in fact I don't think it gets much more than a passing mention.

 

So, don't get hung up on it or imagine that extremes of performance will save sorry backside when you've got yourself in too deep. Worry more about not putting your neck in a noose in the first place.

[Friedrich-4B]

In reply to a few older comments back...

 

If we can't change our wing type in flight could we have one clipped wing and one full wing? :)

 

I have no objection to this idea...as long as you're prepared to do all the flight testing. :smilewink: