Wags update: F-15C: DCS Flaming Cliffs Update

[Grim_Smiles]

Or in other terms:

 

Best part of a two engined aircraft: If one engine fails, the second still pushes you on to the next available crashsite.

 

LOL immediately popped into my head when reading this, "I bet we beat the paramedics there by a half hour":D

 

[Kenan]

The Landing/Take off and "Departure" behavior are the only things that keep me from enjoying the F-15C, in SP and MP,

So when we get the AFM I'll be the happiest person in my Mancave, Take Offs and Landings and Stalls Oh My..

 

Yup. It's not just about flying around..with proper flight model, landing, as in real life is more then just a script kicking in and gluing your wheels on the runway..not to mention doing it in a bad weather..oh, and taxiing as well..

[Frostie]

The F-16 would eat even the Raptor in a gunfight (turns much better than the F-22), but yeah, if it could close in to it enough!

My money is on the Raptor, the Raptor and F-15C pilots probably get much more BFM training than the Falcon pilots.

[GGTharos]

Yep ... F-16 guys have to alternate between A2A and A2G training. Besides, F-22's generally maneuver better than F-16's and can enter those fights unnoticed as well.

[Pyroflash]

I've heard from F-15C and F-16C guys that their jets are more or less on par with each other in terms of BFM capability. The F-15C has more power available, so it can give the pilot a couple more options, but the F-16C guys say that their bird is MUCH easier to handle. That being said, no, the F-22A would eat them both for breakfast. 9 G turns at 20,000' at a similar radius to the F-15C, and it still accelerates. I'd venture a guess that F-22A/F-15C guys are probably going to win anyways though since A2A is almost ALL they do.

[Raven68]

My money is on the Raptor, the Raptor and F-15C pilots probably get much more BFM training than the Falcon pilots.

 

I've heard from F-15C and F-16C guys that their jets are more or less on par with each other in terms of BFM capability. The F-15C has more power available, so it can give the pilot a couple more options, but the F-16C guys say that their bird is MUCH easier to handle. That being said, no, the F-22A would eat them both for breakfast. 9 G turns at 20,000' at a similar radius to the F-15C, and it still accelerates. I'd venture a guess that F-22A/F-15C guys are probably going to win anyways though since A2A is almost ALL they do.

 

 

Yep & Yep!! These some very fine points! :thumbup:

[VanjaB]

Arent we going off topic here a bit?? Besides isnt this whole maneuvrability discussion a bit pointless when you can launch multiple high precision missles at multiple bogeys way beyond visual range....When was the last time one fighter actually engaged another in a dogfight? Vietnam?

[GGTharos]

Gulf war, actually. A couple F-15's mixed it up with a MiG-29.

 

And they constantly train for BFM as well - that should give you a hint. Maneuverability is a 'thing' like any other 'thing' in air to air combat that confers advantages to you: You need enough of it, you don't necessarily need to have the most of it. It all depends on your weapons and tactics.

[VanjaB]

Gulf war, actually. A couple F-15's mixed it up with a MiG-29.

 

And they constantly train for BFM as well - that should give you a hint. Maneuverability is a 'thing' like any other 'thing' in air to air combat that confers advantages to you: You need enough of it, you don't necessarily need to have the most of it. It all depends on your weapons and tactics.

 

Really?? How the hell did he slip by the AWACS and their own radars? The last time an F15 took down bogeys was in Serbia I believe, I watched a documentary from the serbian point of view, the two surviving Mig-29 pilots both reported that they never even had the chance to close into any kind of weapons range before being taken out by missles that they never even saw coming...

[blkspade]

I believe the original off-topic topic was having F-16s on CAP as opposed to F-15s. In which case it wouldn't (typically) matter how they match up against each other, but the potential threat to the strike package. Another reason to favor the F-15 is its ability to carry 2 more air to air missiles than the F-16. More 20mm, and fuel. Keeping strikers better covered, for a longer period of time.

 

I've heard from F-15C and F-16C guys that their jets are more or less on par with each other in terms of BFM capability. The F-15C has more power available, so it can give the pilot a couple more options, but the F-16C guys say that their bird is MUCH easier to handle. That being said, no, the F-22A would eat them both for breakfast. 9 G turns at 20,000' at a similar radius to the F-15C, and it still accelerates. I'd venture a guess that F-22A/F-15C guys are probably going to win anyways though since A2A is almost ALL they do.

[NineLine]

So just to be clear now, we are complaining about going off topic from the off topic discussion? :D

[GGTharos]

Really?? How the hell did he slip by the AWACS and their own radars?

 

He didn't. The timing and topography of the battlespace forced such an encounter.

 

The last time an F15 took down bogeys was in Serbia I believe, I watched a documentary from the serbian point of view, the two surviving Mig-29 pilots both reported that they never even had the chance to close into any kind of weapons range before being taken out by missles that they never even saw coming...

 

Because the battlespace permitted such action :)

 

In air to air combat, everything depends on your circumstances. USAF trains BFM because it is the fundamentals of flying your aircraft, and because it builds everything from a goof BFMer to a good BVRer (in case you didn't realize, if a missile is launched at you you're BFMing that, too). Everything ties together, and the circumstances may force you to the merge. It won't be the last time such a thing has happened.

[blkspade]

Its not that they slipped past. I think it was a combination of operating close to the Iraqi airfields and some IFF issues on the F-15 side.

 

Really?? How the hell did he slip by the AWACS and their own radars? The last time an F15 took down bogeys was in Serbia I believe, I watched a documentary from the serbian point of view, the two surviving Mig-29 pilots both reported that they never even had the chance to close into any kind of weapons range before being taken out by missles that they never even saw coming...

[Pyroflash]

Its not that they slipped past. I think it was a combination of operating close to the Iraqi airfields and some IFF issues on the F-15 side.

Not issues, per-se, the gulf war was a cacophony of NATO assets flying every which way around the battlefield. It was more of an ROE issue TBH. In many cases, the ROE MANDATED visual confirmation of a bandit before action could be taken. As far as this goes to corroborate your claim, AFIAK the reason this was done was that that NATO IFF was not deemed to be infallible, and that even if an aircraft wasn't squaking the "correct" code, it might still have been friendly.

[Morbus]

Generally, but not always, especially if talking about instantaneous turns yeah, but for constant velocity cornering turns, i'd put my money on the Falcon and wait for the F-22 to fall of energy, then "clean him and fry him"! Of course..., if the F-22 won't use it's missiles on the Falcon long before closing in on it (BVR missiles), or to use it's TV ability to turn sharply around and fire a manoeuverable sidewinder missile, before the F-16 can turn good enough!

 

I do agree F-16 is one of the best dogfighter, but I have some doubt about F-22`s worser maneuverability...

I`ve heard that Raptor just makes circles around Falcon.

 

Are there any diagrams about it`s turn performance ?

Edited October 24, 2013 by Morbus

[Pilotasso]

That is very classified stuff and will continue to be for years to come.

[TAW_Blaze]

There's another big upside for having twin engines other than the survivability boost. That is having lesser effect while attaching the same or bigger payload. Might sound weird, let me explain.

 

Let's say you have a F-16 and you want to attach 6 missiles onto it with a droptank. Since the Falcon is very light, that droptank and armament will be a big % increase in terms of weight. Now let's say we have an F-15 and you want to attach the same load on it, aka 6 missiles and a droptank. Now the Eagle is very heavy on it's own and the weight of the load will influence the performance and range of the plane much less than in case of a lighter one (F-16), and not to mention you could add even more while maintaining reasonable performance and range (think of 8 missiles and 3 tanks in case of the Eagle). I don't think I've seen many fully decked out F-16s flying around, their range is just nonexistant that way.

 

tl;dr even if they have equal thrust:weight ratio the heavier one will be able to carry a lot more ordinance without suffering major loss in performance

Edited October 24, 2013 by <Blaze>

[VanjaB]

Im getting damn impatient, when is the AFM coming??!! That video tease was damn unfair... :)

[Raven68]

Here comes the all popular statement........... "2 WEEKS"

[CypherGrunyev]

Here comes the all popular statement........... "2 WEEKS"

 

OH SWEET JESUS THANK YOU RAVEN.

[EtherealN]

There's another big upside for having twin engines other than the survivability boost. That is having lesser effect while attaching the same or bigger payload. Might sound weird, let me explain.

 

[...]

 

 

To be precise though, this isn't an advantage of having two engines. Larger jets tend to have two engines, so correlationally true, but the causative relationship here is size/weight vs that of the weapons.

 

Also note that the comparison is flawed; it might not be enough with just the one droptank on the bigger jets, since it'll drink more fuel to begin with. (But on the other hand, it also might not need any droptank at all in case it just "naturally" has range enough for what is required in the mission.) For these kinds of things it is necessary to compare specific aircraft versions with each other, it cannot be extended to single vs dual engine. These things are complicated. :)

[Kenan]

I find myself regulary checking for the announcement of the update which would include the AFM for 15C..Aaargh..the curse of the "2 weeks time"! :D

[VanjaB]

I find myself regulary checking for the announcement of the update which would include the AFM for 15C..Aaargh..the curse of the "2 weeks time"! :D

 

Ill be surprised if it comes before the end of November. At least that was the time frame given according to the notice that was taken down from the WIP Belsimtek site. (Which was also taken down)

[leafer]

EtherealN, why are you a coffee boy?

[Cedaway]

EtherealN, why are you a coffee boy?

I didn't dare to ask...