Where are the Multiplayer players?

[Vedexent]

tha

The thing is, DCS was never meant to be a multiplayer focused simulator. At least thats not what I went into when I bought the Ka50 and A10C all those years ago. It was designed with fidelity in mind, not performance or balance or server stability or any of those things that multiplayer fans need/desire. With EDGE we might get some of that again (pure speculation though) but first and foremost what most DCS fans want is simulation fidelity.

 

Well ... I'd say that's true of many DCS players, yes.

 

But if all I wanted was airframe fidelity, why wouldn't I just use XPlane, which has professional level simulation, and a far wider selection of aircraft?

 

It's the high fidelity combat simulation that is unique to DCS - and given the limitations of AI opponents, that almost automatically implies multiplayer.

 

I concur 100%, however, that the original simulators were not originally designed to be extended this far. DCS World seems to be an organic evolution of the original software far beyond it's original scope, merging several discrete projects under an umbrella wrapper - and I've never seen a software system that has "evolved" into something else not be laden with issues.

 

I don't hold out a whole lot of hope for EDGE upgrade - unless there's is also substantial re-engineering of the basic software framework along with it. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[ENO]

I don't hold out a whole lot of hope for EDGE upgrade - unless there's is also substantial re-engineering of the basic software framework along with it. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised eventually...

 

I think they know what needs to be done without having the ability to do it (in the timeframe we expect ie: 2012). Everything they're working towards is pointed in the right direction.

 

Granted... their priorities may not line up with ours- and we have plenty of time to mention it...

 

The potential has expanded now that they've entered the 64bit only era... the next hurdle is going to be cramming all that extra into the relatively limited bandwidth window available to most individual users.

[VapoR]

And to Vapor... You make a valid point about mission editing(I think a couple others commented on it as well) in that you're not slamming the mission builders as much as commentating about how some development in the mission editor to make the experience more efficient would go a long way to giving enthusiasts the realism "fix" they desire.

 

What I was saying was only partially slamming the mission designers/hosts. It is not reasonable to build a mission and run that same mission for a year on your public server and not expect visitors to get bored with it. Changing things up and adding more variety into the mission will help give more life to MP. When you have a 30 player server and 1 target area in the middle of the map that EVERYONE converges on is not fun or realistic. The challenge is accomplishing something bigger within the constrains of what DCS can run without issues.

[BRooDJeRo]

I used to play allot more on multiplayer and even host missions on a server with TS. Right now i'm involved with other things.

Right now i'm working on a couple of cool multiplayer missions again to host a server that involve aircraft currently being produced. Detailed full map missions and systems take allot of time to create though by triggering with many layers and 16 players with personal rules etc.

They might be ready in time. Most likely when i have more time. Creating the 'good stuff' takes way more to create than a day.

Personally i like the carrier ops the most at the moment. I guess with the F/A-18 coming most issues around them will be ironed out. That's what i'm really waiting for.

I'm not a die-hard programmer myself, but i do know that fixing one thing can create 5 or way more extra problems hiding elsewhere totally unexpected.

 

We'll see what happens.

Edited October 25, 2013 by BRooDJeRo

[Crescendo]

To answer the OP, the reason I don't play as much online as I used to is because I am getting really tired of starting up, taxiing, taking off, reaching the target area or finding a bandit, and then crashing. It's come to the point where I'm hesitant to invest my time in a sortie because I know there's a not-insignificant chance there won't be a pay-off.

 

No doubt this situation is nuanced and the problems are not easily solvable (otherwise they would have been already), but, from the perspective of someone who mostly flies MP, ED has been doing themselves a serious disservice for over a year now. These regular and persistent crashes have inculcated a climate of frustration and disengagement throughout the MP player-base.

 

Some may think the situation is not so dire, but what you don't see are the people who give up and leave silently, those who leave and never come back. No amount of blinkered cheerleading (too often seen on these forums) can make this elephant in the room disappear. It's a sad situation all around. :(

[number3]

With respect to mission designing, from what I've seen via lua script methods, there is quite a lot that can be accomplished at a lower level of mission design.

 

When it comes to designing a mission that encompasses many different aircraft and roles, the complexity of producing a random combat zone grows exponentially.

 

There are quite a lot of impressive scripts out there that are of a more narrow scope, however the knowledge and the potential is definitely there.

 

I'm not sure how other designers are finding the learning curve of lua scripting for more complex missions, but it's quite steep and could use more documentation and drills into more complex actions.

[Wrecking Crew]

Do you make missions?

 

LOL LOL

 

---

 

Dudester,

 

Check out Eno's Firehouse and the Hollo Pointe servers. There is a good group of regulars who discuss DCS over at SimHQ.com and fly often on our two open servers.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3685928/Eno_s_Firehouse_and_Crew_s_Hol#Post3685928

 

Weekends are busier, but you may see + half a dozen players on them during the week. There is also a phenomenon where if one person joins a server then others will join, too.

 

^^^ I have some sympathy for the comment re a drop off in multiplayers, and yes, mission rotation is necessary to keep bringing people in. Missions can be very involved -- taking a month or more of development to get 'right', and then on-going tweaking, and fixing after some update changes.

 

But, throw an opposing Combined Arms Ground Commander into the mix to move vehicles around and suddenly we are not in Kansas anymore.

 

Wrecking Crew

[SkateZilla]

But Everyone Loves "the Highway" Mission!

[Wrecking Crew]

Skate :-)

 

I don't get enough of Nuke Plant, and it is three years old.

 

WC

[ENO]

What was the one called with the mirrored forces again? For the life of me I can't remember...

 

 

It's funny because for the number of guys we get talking about how they want more involved missions I get twice as many guys who won't even read the brief or complain that they're too long.

 

We really can't win in that regard... so we do the best that we can.

Edited October 25, 2013 by ENO

[luza]

Quit, waiting for new things (that aren't broken)

[Wrecking Crew]

iShot The Shilka

But I did not shoot the Tunguska.

 

Yeah, ^^^ that's a good one. Some people don't like H2H though. I wish the F5 View would be a settable option in the ME.

 

WC

[ENO]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Mohamengina]

Another cause: stale missions. You can only fly missions a few times before you memorize exactly where every unit is.

 

Some ways to improve this on the mission designers part:

 

Dynamic weather, regenerated often. Really can create different experiences.

 

Several sets of target areas with enough targets. Create separate packages going to different targets than having 6 waypoints for everyone.

 

More interesting targets: stuff like bunkers and depots gaurded by some AA.

 

Resource system: USE IT. Limit the number of aircraft and weapons available to make everyone more careful to protect what they have.

 

Win conditions: make them tangible.

 

Ultimately what is really needed for MP to be great though is a dynamic campaign. Servers would be full every day!

 

This is the biggest turn off for me. I log in and will only play a mission that has started recently and has a few players. Otherwise mopping up other players remains after most of the mission events have occured isn't very engaging. Thats why I supported ED make a system where players join a queue with a particular aircraft they want to fly and a server selects or creates a mission with the aircraft used by the players. When the mission is over or all players exit the mission is over and the queue stqrts again.

[EchoMasterMind]

This is the biggest turn off for me. I log in and will only play a mission that has started recently and has a few players. Otherwise mopping up other players remains after most of the mission events have occured isn't very engaging. Thats why I supported ED make a system where players join a queue with a particular aircraft they want to fly and a server selects or creates a mission with the aircraft used by the players. When the mission is over or all players exit the mission is over and the queue stqrts again.

 

I like your idea. Just wanted to express my support :)

[theOden]

This is the biggest turn off for me. I log in and will only play a mission that has started recently and has a few players. Otherwise mopping up other players remains after most of the mission events have occured isn't very engaging. Thats why I supported ED make a system where players join a queue with a particular aircraft they want to fly and a server selects or creates a mission with the aircraft used by the players. When the mission is over or all players exit the mission is over and the queue stqrts again.

It's called "COOP" and is already in the simgame. You just need to find a group with your own mindset.

[theOden]

..

DCS: WWII will kill IL-2 COD.

DCS: F/A-18C will kill BMS for good.

Why?

[Crescendo]

Well, I wasn't clear in my post, but the crashes I'm talking about are server crashes. I rarely crash on the client side.

 

I have experienced enough server crashes on all major servers to frustrate me. I've found that the S77th is the worst offender: Unless they've changed their missions/settings in the last few weeks, my friend and I considered ourselves lucky to be playing for more than an hour.

[Vedexent]

 

X-Plane and FSX have nothing on the Advanced Flight Model of DCS.

DCS has no equal in terms of helicopter physics also.

 

 

That must be why Xplane is used as a professional small plane pilot training simulator :P

 

XPlane lacks the integrated combat simulation, and it's 3D cockpits are not nearly as good as the A-10C or the Mustang.

 

But XPlane also has a far broader selection of aircraft.

 

If all I wanted to do was fly airplanes, by myself, XPlane might be a better platform.

 

However, there really is only one high fidelity multi-user, multi-role combat aircraft platform out there.

 

Which really is a shame. As much as I like DCS and ED, having a little competition keeps you motivated to stay on top of your game.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Vedexent
small plane ... not small pilot

[Vedexent]

I don't see any of you guys flying online.

I fly all the time.

 

I fly all the time. I never see you.

 

Maybe you don't fly ... or maybe you just don't fly on my server, hmm?

[TAW_Blaze]

I'ven flown on WAR, 51st and some other servers quite a lot and whichever had more than 10 guys up always crashed down after 2-3 hours if not less. I don't mind it too much right now because I'm learning and still having a lot of fun while flying but I can imagine this being very annoying later.

[Crescendo]

I play multiple times a week by myself and on Sundays with a friend for ~4 hours or so. I rarely see people from the forums either. It's not unheard of. I don't know everyone here, I don't pay that much attention, and besides, no one in this forum would recognize me because I don't fly online with this forum name. Furthermore, there are different timezones to be considered.

 

That's why I find it a bit funny when eXPeRT says he doesn't see anyone else online, when he himself blanks out his in-game name when posting screenshot of his scoreboards.

 

In any case, what does it really matter? It seems to me that this "I've never seen you around" attitude is not helpful. My own impression is that it's code for "because I've never seen you around, you must not know what you're talking about".

[Crescendo]

I know this is off-topic, but I sincerely doubt that BMS will be dying any time soon. Certainly not at the hands of DCS in its present form.

 

BMS and DCS are very different games. DCS simulates individual aircraft very well, but what it doesn't do is simulate the total experience of being a fighter pilot. BMS is much better in that regard due to its briefing and mission planning tools, the DTC, the dynamic campaign etc. BMS is showing its age, sure, but it was built from the ground up in part to be about the experience of being a fighter pilot doing fighter pilot things in a fighter pilot's war, and that shows. By contrast, DCS is not about the totality of the fighter pilot experience. DCS gives you well-modeled aircraft with immersive graphics, but at the cost of a lack of mission planning tools and a sterile world that is dependent on scripted missions to create its feel.

 

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. In my view, how can DCS "kill" BMS when DCS still has so much to learn? DCS is steadily improving year after year, but it's no killer yet.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Crescendo

[Frostie]

The server admins need to simply re-save the missions from the editor with each patch.

And yes, a lot has changed in the last few weeks.

I see people complaining but none of them are flying online and I fly and enjoy DCS thoroughly.

 

The server crashes we do get are probably due to AI jets respawning for those who don't own any modules and select them. It started with the Steam release. They just need to be restricted, and only allow selecting the aircraft that you have.

 

Other than that, I have been flying on 104th and 51st last few days without a problem. Mostly SEAD then got a few BVR ER kills lately, surprisingly, they don't lose the lock it seems!

 

Lets just try again, ok? Then come here and report the results.

I see you online a lot, but only because I know who you are. ;)

I'm not disagreeing with your experiences with DCS at the moment i'm sure you've had plenty of long sessions. But isn't this down to the fact you've spent so much time actually flying DCS. You understand how to get the best out of it and when a server crashes you know where to go to get your next fix.

 

Like you I know if server x crashes then there are several other servers running the kind of missions I want to fly in available and that when a handful of numbers build up in one of those servers more will come, that is the nature of DCS online.

 

But the problem is it gets tiresome and those not in the loop probably get fed up even quicker. I've just recently entered WAR server that was populated by 10-12 players @3 hours uptime, flew half a sortie in an F-15, splashed a couple of bandits, a few more joined the server so it was in the late 'teens, I was then chasing another bandit while thinking about RTB when the server crashed.

So I had about a 15-20 minute session which ended in disappointment.

 

This is the problem Expert, servers are not stable. Clients are good, those connected on LAN settings don't for the most part crash, it is the servers crashing which is destroying MP.

 

ED made a big mistake IMO releasing DCSW on STEAM when MP was in such a poor state. A lot of those potential customers on Steam that D/Loaded DCS:FREE regard MP gaming as the only way, hence why so many joined servers asking how to start engines etc. Those players, and there were a lot, joined servers to find themselves crashing (because they didn't know about the crazy LAN trick) and servers crashing, they then shelved the nonsense and carried on to the next MP world. Business fail. :doh:

[ENO]

 

Everyone who claims to be constantly crashing is exaggerating!

Or their system is not on par with DCS, or needs tuning.

 

Seriously, take a screenshot of your next crash and post here.

I think most been fixed. I've been flying daily.

 

 

 

 

You been to the crash section of the dcsw bugs and problems area lately? The number of crashes is down- granted. But there are still plenty.

 

And if you're going to say a server crashing while you're on it is any less of an interruption then you're just missing the point. There's also a guy on the other end who needs to constantly monitor the server and get it restarted every time it crashes, not to mention every other person in the server who needs to start over.

 

So while I can sort of appreciate you being positive about it- don't for one second think that the people out there need to exaggerate their problems because they have nothing better to do. And I hope nobody wastes any more of their time trying to paste screenshots of their problems here just to invalidate your claims when they should be posting those issues over in the bugs section where they might help to contribute to a solution.

 

 

And to frostie- agreed about the steam comments. Way too soon on EDs part.

Edited October 26, 2013 by ENO