A good reading about starforce

[Starlight]

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/30/anticopying_malware_.html

 

it seems to explain some things. I'm not sure they're 100% correct, anyway the main problem with starforce is that many users report problems, and that's unacceptable for a copy protection system. If its job is to guard the companies' income, it shouldn't do it to final users' cost.

[WhiskeyRomeo]

Huh? what is "many" ? If they're not 100% correct - what percentage correct are they?

Any sources for Starforce being malware besides a site called BoingBoing or http://www.glop.org?

 

 

 

Maybe this is better reading??

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/8121095173

or maybe:

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=11236&page=3

 

Edit:

added new link: http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview/default.asp

[SUBS17]

I've heard a few guys have lost CDROM drives from SF, on my machine its not very noticable at all but there are people who are not happy with it. Not quite sure myself why a game copy protection system should effect a cdrom drive and erase its internal software.

[condor11]

Hi Mom!

[Starlight]

one of the problems within Starforce, is that it's not just a program. It's a driver, which operates at really low level, much lower than it should.

 

This thing has two big consequences:

1. Like all drivers, bugs and holes can seriously affect system stability, performance and security... just think about a bugged chipset/IDE/video driver... you'll hardly get your system running!

2. If MS planned their OS with security levels there must be a reason! If all programmers started to build drivers instead of programs, systems would crash continuously.

 

I understand the need to protect games and programs. But I think protection can't affect the final user.

 

BTW, for a thing very similar to Starforce, Sony is facing serious troubles....

[Starlight]

added new link: http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview/default.asp

 

 

Well, an interview with a Starforce team member is not a great idea too...

Do you think he'd say: "Yes my program is totally crap and is a deadly malware ****ing spyware"???!!! :D lol

 

Also their "replicate your bug" contest isn't that good. It's really difficult to replicate a crash, and just consider this: how many people would take a trip to starforce studios, just to show that their $ 30 game causes a computer crash?

 

I understand that some problems with starforce are caused by "that thing that stands between the keyboard and the chair" but there have been also detailed reports of malfunctions.

[Cromewell]

The only problem I have is StarForce (well I assume it to be StarForce as it didn't happen until I installed a StarForce protected game) spins my CD drives up to full RPM at somewhat regular intervals if there is a CD in them.

 

I think that copy protection just hurts people who buy the game because I think those who would steal it didn't/will not go out and buy it.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

lock this thread before it starts..........

[Cromewell]

I guess I wasn't specific enough about when the drives spin up. It's not while playing a game, it's when my PC is idle and semi-idle (ie word processing, emails etc).

 

edit: I should probably clairify my copy protection statement as well. I don't want this to turn into another "it's evil blah blah blah" thread. I don't think StarForce is a good solution, it works well, no one can dispute that. I just highly doubt anyone bought 1.1 that wasn't going to regardless of what copy protection was used.

[SUBS17]

I took all the SF stuff with a large pinch of salt untill the DVD burners on both my PC's died within hours of installing a starforce protected game. One of the burners was about 8 months old, the other about 3 months old one a Sony the other MSI. I doubt very much it is a coincidence that 2 perfectly good burners should die on the same day that the starforce drivers were installed on both machines. As a result I will never purchase another game with starforce on it. My biggest fear now is that FS X will have starforce and I'll be stuck on FS2004 forever more.

 

Frugal

 

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=98137&page=3&highlight=lockon

[504 Wolverine]

lock this thread before it starts..........

Seconded.

 

We all know that this will go downhill FAST, so why bother.

[GGTharos]

It doesn't mean it doesn't happen ... but is it because SF is crummy, or is it because that drive's firmware or drive is crummy instead? I mean, seriously.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

Seconded.

 

We all know that this will go downhill FAST, so why bother.

 

tbh, i wouldnt mind it, but there is nothing new that we HAVENT heard the last 2000 times a similar thread has been opened.

 

If someone was to come out with a startling new fact or an absolute certainty on how SF breaks hardware, then I would love to see a thread about it, but til then, rumours and speculation is, well it gets kinda boring after reading the same stuff regarding the same thing over and over again.

[bflagg]

I've heard a few guys have lost CDROM drives from SF, on my machine its not very noticable at all but there are people who are not happy with it. Not quite sure myself why a game copy protection system should effect a cdrom drive and erase its internal software.

 

THis happened with a family member who has been coding for years and when indentified and starfarce was informed... there wasn't even a "sorry".

 

That says alot about a company in itself.

[SUBS17]

I wonder if maybe CDROM manufacturers were to update the firm ware then or a patch of some sort might also sort the problem out. How about software does it effect any particular types of software? Ultimately copy protection is a good idea but it must only remain within the program itself and not interfere with anything else such as discopy programs or cd drives. Future programs such as TK and Destroyer should use a copy protection that stays within its boundrys and go nowhere else otherwise it has a negative impact on sales.

[AndyHill]

That stuff about lawyers and FBI is just really classy. Does ED really want to be associated with this bunch? Copy protection in itself is a good thingbut things are getting out of hand. I've heard enough to believe that SF most likely does produce problems for many people. Even if it didn't it has no right to get that deep into (relatively) innocent people's computers, since in exchange for the potential to cause harm it offers absolutely zero benefits. That's also why blaming CD drive manufacturers for the damage is a bit like shooting someone and blaming him for not wearing a kevlar vest. The StarForce company seems to have a bit of an attitude that, I dare say, matches their product.

[Dmut]

one of the problems within Starforce, is that it's not just a program. It's a driver, ...

Latest versions of SecuROM and SafeDisk also installs their drivers to system. This is the only way to do good protection (besides of using hardware keys, and, btw, they install drivers too)

...which operates at really low level, much lower than it should.

all drivers on windows system operate on system level privileges or, from CPU's point of view, "ring0", nothing special about SF on that criteria.

 

ps: My keyboard gets dirty, and few key are sticking eventually, it must be a keyboard driver...

pps: and I going to blame new nVidia Detonators for 2 broken pixels on my 19" LCD... :)

[NEODARK]

Some interesting links that poped up recently:

 

StarForce vs. Boing Boing: Two Silly Names Square Off:

 

http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?comments=40582

 

news.com (Nov 2005 article)

 

http://news.com.com/5208-7349-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=11535&messageID=86618&start=-184

 

[H]ardOcp

 

http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?news=MTY2ODcsSmFudWFyeSAgLDIwMDY=

 

I haven't personally had any problems with SF, yet I still dislike how its handled by companies (hidden/stealth installation, driver remains installed even after game uninstall, no mention about it in the EULA, etc)

 

The only reason I put up with it, is because I love lockon, otherwise I wouldn't have it.

[Starlight]

Latest versions of SecuROM and SafeDisk also installs their drivers to system. This is the only way to do good protection (besides of using hardware keys, and, btw, they install drivers too)

I don't have anything personal against SF. Simply put, copy protections shouldn't be drivers. All drivers (not just copy protections), if not properly tested can screw up systems. That is no news.

 

ps: My keyboard gets dirty, and few key are sticking eventually, it must be a keyboard driver...

pps: and I going to blame new nVidia Detonators for 2 broken pixels on my 19" LCD... :)

no comment :(

[Starlight]

IMHO copy protections shouldn't be strongholds that last years but infect users PCs with unknown/undesired features.

Sony (not ED, Starforce or any other small company) today is facing serious troubles for the so-called "rootkit" for DRM.

 

Copy protections should be good enough to withstand for some months hacker attacks without being cracked... after that timeframe the software protected becomes a bit "old" and it doesn't need copy protection any more.

I think that even today a good copy protection (that at least requires the hassle of emulation to be cracked) and a "not so high" price would make people buy more original software.

[zaelu]

No locks can't be "opened" that's for shure.

 

Any security system should be design in proportion with the "treasure" it defends, the price the treasure holder want's to pay and the amount of efforts it could be put into "breaking in".

 

Lets say you want to protect a home. With the "No locks can't be opened" in mind, a system like a NORAD's bunker would be ok? It can be broke hipoteticaly but is highly unprobable. This system will be though very unbalanced... offcourse no thief will try to break in just to steal the TV set.

 

This thing with the SF drivers is something just like that.

 

Because they cannot stand too much in the face of crackers they are making the protection system bigger and bigger. No matter how much they tried till now nothing worked. Every copy protection system felt in the end.

 

So what we have now? A poor PC game (30-50$ medium cost, funny how this "big bad dog" is protecting a 15$ game like Lomac) is now protected by a copy protection system that resembles more and more the NORAD one.

This is the interesting part. No matter that inside is just a TV set (the game in our comparision) they still try to break it and till now they still manage to do it although of this NORAD style system. Silent Hunter was broke (one friend worked at this game and was kinda surprised of that), TOCA 2 was broke also.

 

Don't get me wrong... I'd hate to see maddox games or ED here going out of business because of big piracy but unfortunely they can't do much about it. But in my opinion the piracy will never die like thieving in real world will not.

 

Star force is a perfect solution for protecting small niche games, is good for ED is good for Maddox games. In the moment that SF will protect a big game the hell will break lose. It will be break in the end and that will mean doom for it. Another copy protection system will have to rise.

 

Now if that story about the resemblens of SF and Sony's root kit is close to real and someone builds some malware on the back of SF drivers... the hell will break lose sooner... as one previous poster said Sony is trying to make things good now after his mistake... and is SONY.

 

 

IMHO the best way for small developing teams like ED and MG is to continously add content to their game. That will please their fancore base and they will do the rest by spreading the word.

 

Again, just not to be missunderstood, I don't have any problems that I could relate to SF drivers till now. If ED's happy and I have no problems... why bother.

 

regards.

[Force_Feedback]

Come, on, like piracy is the issue with such games, with a fairly limited audience. And even for big shooters, that make up like 80% of the gross income in the pc game business, a copy protection isn't that vital, as the target audience (boys, aged 8-15) won't bother to crack it, and will just buy it (if they make enough commercials for it).

What I do hate about SF is, that I had to reinstall the firmware of my DVD burner (and it shattered a disc before, but I don't have proof that SF caused it, I did have to live for 5 weeks without it) to get it to read and burn readable dvds again.

So I guess it's not hard to imagine that people who bought the game feel getting screwed, because they have to face inconveniences, while others, who have pirated the game don't have that many troubles. If there was something that could remove SF, while retaining the game software, I would use it, legit or not, because I'm really annoyed with random disc spin ups, while I'm making a movie or something. So I'm forced to empty my cd/dvd drives, just to not be annoyed by random spin-ups, because some copy protection, for a game that I urrently wasn't playing, wants to collect some info for later versions.

And offcourse there's the terrible hickups when launching FC, even my mouse stops responding, and it's very annoying when listening to mp3s, as they too will hang.

 

In that past I've had some legal discs swith SF on them, and most of them are gathering dust on the shelf because updates don't work and the games themself have strange bugs. While other versions of the same software, without SF, work perfectly (even the patches). Oh well, this is pointless, because someone will come in saying this all is ot true, and that we have spyware on our pcs.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Why doesn't ED just implement a simple, on-line, license activation procedure? Jeppessen does this with their CMAX software for EX500 MFDs...and their software is a hell of a lot more expensive than a silly computer game. Each disc is encoded with a unique serial number, and you can install the program on your PC, but you can't actually use it until you activate your license. This is done in a quick, simple process, in which you send your serial number electronically to their activation server and it gives you an activation code to make the program start working. But...the catch is, when you enter the activation code, it will check to see if that code is already in use for that serial number, so...the installation can only be activated on one machine. The only way to move it to another machine is to go through a deactivation process for that license, and then you can activate it on another machine. This pretty much stops piracy as even a copy with that same serial number on it couldn't be used if the original purchaser was already using it. It doesn't install any drivers on your machine, and doesn't muck with your burners to try and prevent you from burning a copy. They don't care if you make a copy, because only one person can use it, no matter how many copies you make. See...companies like Jeppessen can't mess with their customers by using intrusive schemes, because, in the case of many of them, they wouldn't need to hire a lawyer...many of them are lawyers themselves. Anyway...this system works really well, even though counterfeiting and piracy in the aviation world is BIG BUSINESS where LOTS of money could be made...not some cheesy little 15 year old punks on warez sites.

 

Having said all that...WHEW!!! LOL. I haven't had any problems with StarForce, but I don't doubt the validity of some of the other claims. If StarForce is a driver, its just like every other driver...on some systems they work great, while on some due to hardware differences (or whatever), they end up totally borking everything. StarForce can up the ante on their challenge by guaranteeing that anyone who qualifies, and goes to Moscow, will be able to transport their PC back to wherever they came from in the same condition it was in when it got there. If customs decides to confiscate it, and/or inspect it and end up damaging it, StarForce should offer to reimburse them the market value of that PC, regardless of whether or not they won the challenge. Otherwise its just noise. I wouldn't mind having to pay for a trip to Moscow, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to risk my PC without certain assurances from StarForce that I wouldn't have to buy a new PC as well.

[arraamis]

Dear Sir, calling StarForce "Anti-copying malware" is a good enough cause to press charges and that is what our corporate lawyer is busy doing right now. I urge you to remove your post from http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/30/anticopying_malware_.html because it is full of insults, lies, false accusations and rumors. Your article violates approximately 11 international laws. Our USlawyer will contact you shortly. I have also contacted the FBI , because what you are doing is harassment.

 

Sincerely, Dennis Zhidkov, PR-manager, StarForce Inc., http://www.star-force.com

 

Reference: http://gameguru.box.sk/

******************

How about all the people who have had their computer hardware systematically destroyed suing starforce.

 

They {SF} really have some balls, suing someone because they expose information about their product that is true in many cases.

 

******************

http://www.glop.org/starforce/

 

Read about all the problems people are having as a result of SF's product.

******************

 

I say everybody collectively sue Starforce, for damage to personal property.

 

******************

Hello,

 

My name is Dan Mattia, the founder and co-owner of Game Overdrive (http://www.game-overdrive.com).

 

In an effort to help the Boycott Starforce project, my company has begun emailing our PR contacts from the publishers who use Starforce, stating to them that they either drop Starforce or we drop their support. We've also banned any reviewing of any games they make until Starforce is dropped.

 

We've had to hurt some of our relations with these companies, but in order to keep our systems running, Starforce will not be allowed to be installed.

 

I urge you to contact your favourite gaming publications and demand they drop support of companies that use Starforce, as well. If we get a big enough boycott, we're sure to make an impact on the publishers

 

Reference: http://www.glop.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=163

[S77th-RYKE]

No locks can't be "opened" that's for shure.

 

Any security system should be design in proportion with the "treasure" it defends, the price the treasure holder want's to pay and the amount of efforts it could be put into "breaking in".

 

Lets say you want to protect a home. With the "No locks can't be opened" in mind, a system like a NORAD's bunker would be ok? It can be broke hipoteticaly but is highly unprobable. This system will be though very unbalanced... offcourse no thief will try to break in just to steal the TV set.

 

This thing with the SF drivers is something just like that.

 

Because they cannot stand too much in the face of crackers they are making the protection system bigger and bigger. No matter how much they tried till now nothing worked. Every copy protection system felt in the end.

 

So what we have now? A poor PC game (30-50$ medium cost, funny how this "big bad dog" is protecting a 15$ game like Lomac) is now protected by a copy protection system that resembles more and more the NORAD one.

This is the interesting part. No matter that inside is just a TV set (the game in our comparision) they still try to break it and till now they still manage to do it although of this NORAD style system. Silent Hunter was broke (one friend worked at this game and was kinda surprised of that), TOCA 2 was broke also.

 

Good analogy :)

 

let's put the "personal" back into the "PC" if we let all these software developpers install crap on our computers we lose all privacy .

 

Furthermore who's got just 1 piece of software installed ? if every stupid program we have can scan me to death and report back , how slow will my computer become ? how many things are running in the background ? How many moronic programs will give themselves permission to report/update or whatever everytime I open up my comp or connect to the internet.

 

I especially like those programs that you can't turn updates off , once a week , once a month but no off switch ... I have to wait in freakin line to access the net ...

 

It's a trend , a bad trend , I say no to it .

 

There's even a fridg that connects to the internet to supposedly report in to the manufacturer if it has gone berserk , but I really know it's counting how many beers I had and chooses just the right time to send me e-mails to improve my credit or dick size .

 

Technology is a good thing , let's put the money grubbing corporations back in their place and say no to privacy invasion .