Questions regarding the stability and control of the Mustang

[DerHesse70]

Agreed,

I misspoke referring to the variety of sticks. What I meant to say was to have the ability to adjust stick response and option in the "Options" area with more latitude to compensate to some degree for stick response variation.

 

Most sticks operate within similar min/max outputs. But how quickly they output from point to point varies and I think something similar to "Rudder Assist" for those that need it would be great.

 

My WARTHOG requires very little input to initiate a large response from the elevators on the current P51. I have to modify the output by extending the middle 2/3rds of the linear response "curve" and moving the min/max out beyond response output. Thereby, creating a false min/max that responds closer towards the middle. But . . . . unfortunately, I lose the proper min/max that is required to pull that nose through in an emergency situation - even at the risk of a high-speed stall. Even using curves I can't get the sensitivity of the stick adjusted to compensate for the link the devs have created between the stick output numbers as linked to the response of the elevators.

 

I truly believe, as this is the only sim I have ever come across with this extreme of sensitivity towards stick input, that there needs to be an area of stick sensitivity adjustment built into the next update on the P51.

 

I'm very excited to see what RRG studios come up with for WWII as they also are in the area of trying to exact correct flight modeling and have much experience in the relation of stick to control surface response.

 

Cheers,

 

Word! :thumbup:

[Der_Fred]

I thought i might have 'overrevved', so kept away for a while..

Time to clear my thoughts :

 

When flying any aircraft.. no matter what the stick length (or technology for that matter - sidestick).. you fly by all your senses.

 

This doesn't change between a/c types, or Sim stick calibrations..

 

That example movie i put up.. I was always close to stall.. and i didn't even know what my calibration was ??

:)

[BiBa]

This $350 Heli-Kit

http://www.heli-kit.com.ar/

is basically for Helicopters, but by reversing the Collective, it is better suitable for the P-51 with its cyclic stick that matches the P-51 stick properties better than any fly by wire sophisticated Joystick on the market! Rudders are also included on a uniform platform for all three parts, which makes it the best investment for a whole package...

 

Its Collective Command has also a Twist Throttle that can be assigned for the Range Dial!

[Barfly]

I agree completely with MikeWilliams perspective and a few others here.... arguments about the fidelity of the sim physics aside, the DCS mustang would be more flyable and much more realistic with a desktop joystick oriented input curve as standard... maybe give a control option for that fraction of users that want a full length control stick... "Realistic angle of deflection" or whatever you want to call it.

 

Have as standard a blended input for desktop joysticks, with perhaps a "finger-tip" level of control for the first 1/2 inch of top stick travel or so, blended into full control throw input at full angle of joystick deflection. I think that scheme works well for some of the better aircraft in FSX, and perhaps other sims, and would work well here. I know that's not how the sim is coded, and apparently the input response curves don't seem to allow that range of adjustment... at least they don't in my limited experience with them.

 

As a sim, the DCS Mustang is certainly exceptional, with it's strong points being that it's a comprehensive systems, weapons, and combat environment simulation, with a very detailed FM engine, but the flight feel in large part just isn't there in my case. Some of that comes from an unwillingness to put extra time into adapting to the chosen control scheme, some is lack of suspension of disbelief because IMO the complex and varied parts of the FM don't mesh well enough to give a thoroughly believable flight experience throughout the envelope. Just my opinion.

 

As for the feedback from the Mustang pilots, it's easier for them to replicate the experience of flying an aircraft they know well in a simulator that is a reasonable facsimile of the real thing, but that's not necessarily the level of detail necessary to 'inform' a PC simmer of the exact characteristics of the real thing... if that makes any sense. There was certainly a lack of detail in the pilot's feedback that is telling... particularly with respect to control response and axis stability. Those are things you can work around to get a good result in a sim if you are a decent pilot, but not necessarily adequate for a sim to stand on it's own as representative to someone not familiar with the type. If that makes any sense...

[Echo38]

Barfly, bear in mind that the man ultimately responsible for initiating the development of DCS: P-51D, Nick Grey, is a real P-51D pilot. He kept testing the sim & specifying changes until he felt that it was right.

 

Like I said at the beginning of this thread: blame our shoddy & grossly inaccurate hardware, not the sim. The solution lies in making the hardware closer to the real thing, not in making the software farther from the real thing. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that ...

 

By all means, let there be options for players to make their flight model less accurate to help them deal with poorly-engineered joysticks (and, recall, these options are already present), but the flight model must not be made inaccurate for the rest of us. Others (such as myself) would rather accept the immutable fact that a realistic flight model will be unrealistically difficult when using short plastic joysticks, and deal with it the hard way--by simple practice.

 

Also, welcome to DCS. I hope that you will come to appreciate it as a miracle, as I do. Blue sky : )

Edited January 4, 2014 by Echo38

[PeterP]

Barfly, what you are describing in your post is already doable and can be achieved by setting a curve on your input axis:

 

...\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\Doc\DCS World Input Controller Walk Through EN.pdf

Curvature - All AFM DCS aircraft (Su-25T, Ka-50, A-10C, P-51D, UH-1H) are designed for no curves. This means the realistic setting is “linear” and curves only exist to help compensate for the limitations of gaming hardware. Only if you are unable to achieve a realistic level of control authority using linear settings, you should use curves to try to get as close as possible to having realistic control authority.

Generally, adding a bit of curve can help in fine input control, especially for high-precision maneuvers like air-to-air refueling. But setting a curve is a double-edged sword: around the center position your input is smoothed, but away from the center it is amplified.

 

 

When flying helicopters, also keep in mind that the cyclic will be away from the neutral position for most phases of the flight. If a curve is needed at all, it should be limited to a low value (max. 20).

Press the OK button at the bottom of the panel when done.

 

[Merlin-27]

...Others (such as myself) would rather accept the immutable fact that a realistic flight model will be unrealistically difficult when using short plastic joysticks, and deal with it the hard way--by simple practice.

 

What he said. All this time claiming that the sim is too hard could be spent learning how to fly it. The real travesty would be if the DCS P-51D WAS easy to fly. I personally, want the challenges the actual WWII pilots faced. Nothing less. And of course we get a few others... due to hardware limitations. But it is do-able...and very rewarding.

 

Come see it in person on the servers. There are people flying at all hours, young & old that can make that Mustang perform like a dream. (with full-realism settings) The thing most have in common? A dedication to mastering this challenging aircraft.

 

This aint your daddy's Cessna. :D

[ZaltysZ]

This is very interesting,

I would be very interested in seeing the curves on your setup.

 

Completely linear, no deadzones.

[Barfly]

Thanks for the welcome, and input guys. I've modified the curves a bit and get a much better result now... still not quite there yet, gonna continue to fiddle with it. I assume a linear response curve in the Axis Tune Panel is a straight, not curved line?

[Echo38]

I assume a linear response curve in the Axis Tune Panel is a straight, not curved line?

 

Yes. Direct input means linear response (no curve) and no dead zone; it means that what you pull is what you get (assuming your joystick isn't malfunctioning). Pulling the real joystick back 10% pulls the virtual stick 10%, 20% does 20%, and so on, all the way to 100% & 100%.

 

By the way, I'd like to point out that ZaltysZ is one of the best virtual pilots I've ever encountered throughout my thousands of hours in multiplayer flightsim games. I was also rather high-scoring back when I was able to v-fly regularly, and I also use direct input only. So, while it may take extra time to learn the basics, it's quite possible (and, I maintain, advisable) to learn to fight without curves--and even top world leaderboards. You'll be a little bit shakier in the straight-and-level, but you'll be a lot more precise in the turn, ultimately.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Echo38

[BiBa]

The mass-attack phenomena "markwilliam" was facing is a recurring problem in DCS Support, that is turning its Forums more to a "Wailing Wall" than the Support-role it was thought for. I couldn't trace any direct affront in his replies towards any member, whereas notorious "Forum Lobbies" concealed with rhetoric laminate, harbor often in their sarcastic attitude more ranting than a direct BS or FUs. This destructive attitude is contra-productive and doesn't help reaching higher latitude, what a Forum was meant for.

 

In return, I admire the factual clarity and serenity of how for eg Belsimtek/TFC Associate like EvilBivol-1 deals with things. This is the kind of characteristic attitude that should be set as paragon, which prevails in dealing with technical terms, no matter how bold criticism is, as long as it's exclusively framed in the context of technical terminology. Down by laws of gravity, what comes up must come down - what is wrong can't stall long! No need for disgraceful sneering to call a spade a spade...

 

Neurotic narcissists are here unnecessary, misleading and out of place. The problem is: they are not aware to acquire this self-knowledge, because vanity is their muse... It's the speciality of the Moderator to filter them up.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Biba

[Davee]

Like I said at the beginning of this thread: blame our shoddy & grossly inaccurate hardware, not the sim.

 

 

Echo,

I hardly think that the folks who own a TM WARTHOG or any hi-end stick with hall sensors would consider their hardware to be "shoddy & grossly inaccurate".

 

IMHO, this is a vast generalization in statement - perhaps you have input/output data to verify your opinion?

[NineLine]

Echo,

I hardly think that the folks who own a TM WARTHOG or any hi-end stick with hall sensors would consider their hardware to be "shoddy & grossly inaccurate".

 

IMHO, this is a vast generalization in statement - perhaps you have input/output data to verify your opinion?

 

I think Echo was probably stating it a little strongly, I am sure not many people would say the TM Warthog is shoddy, but when it comes to the P-51D's flight controls, they dont match up as far as stick travel and such, it makes a difference... take the height of the Warthog stick, then jump in a real P-51 and try flying it by holding the stick at that height... I'll notify your family of their loss ;)

[Barfly]

So far so good with a Logitech 3d stick and Saitek rudder pedals. Any thoughts on force feedback? Does it broadcast onset of high aoa approach to stall (accelerated) in a reasonable fashion / match the visual indications?

 

I lieu of decent force feedback, it would be nice to have adjustable buffet sounds... they may currently be at a realistic volume, but absent peripheral vision and physical feedback, louder buffet would be a reasonable substitute IMO for PC sim purposes.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Barfly

[PeterP]

ED Forums » English » Digital Combat Simulator » DCS: P-51D Mustang » stall buffet sound

 

No - not really...Means:

There is so much shaking going on all the time that I can't really tell if there is a lot more that is caused by the stall.

 

 

But what I can feel is the FFB at my Stick -

Lock at the virtual-stick/diamond how my stick starts to vibrate when the stall begins:

 

it's similar to this:

ED Forums » English » Digital Combat Simulator » DCS: A-10C Warthog » Force Feedback in the real A-10C?

 

Can confirm it - the Stick shakes nicely between my legs/hand when gears/flaps are down and high AOA.

 

Edited January 4, 2014 by PeterP

[Echo38]

I am sure not many people would say the TM Warthog is shoddy, but when it comes to the P-51D's flight controls, they dont match up as far as stick travel and such, it makes a difference... take the height of the Warthog stick, then jump in a real P-51 and try flying it by holding the stick at that height... I'll notify your family of their loss

 

Yep, this is what I was getting at. Even the best simming controllers on the mass market don't come remotely close to the feel of a real aircraft stick. The springs alone are a problem ... nothing at all like cables attached to balanced mass, let alone airflow. And don't get me started on the inadequacy of current-tech force-feedback sticks.

 

The mass-attack phenomena "markwilliam" was facing is a recurring problem in DCS Support.

 

Barfly posted a similar opinion to Markwilliam's, and received cordial response. The difference was in the presentation, and in willingness to discuss rather than simply brushing responses aside.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Echo38

[BiBa]

...The springs alone are a problem--nothing at all like cables attached to balanced mass...

Looking at the Video of PeterP, I think he did a wonderful job with his balance mounted cyclic construction. (this thread Page 5)

 

I wonder what such a design construction would cost if made available for the market...

Edited January 5, 2014 by Biba

[Echo38]

I've seen a few home-built (and two-thousand-dollar custom) ones which attempt to replicate mass balance and such, but I've never had an opportunity to try one out. There definitely isn't anything like this on the mass market, unfortunately. It would cost over a thousand dollars per unit, and there simply isn't enough interest to make it commercially viable. Peter's a genius, but most of us don't have the ability to make our own.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Echo38

[willzah1313]

To the OP, Watch

any questions? :)

[NineLine]

To the OP, Watch

any questions? :)

 

Yeah, is Yo-Yo wearing an ED jacket, and why arent those on the ED store page :)

[lesnyborsuk]

From my personal experience I know that you can't ask RL pilots a general question "Is this sim realistic", because many of them would say that it's not because maybe they are computer newbies or has no experience with them at all. They just don't know how to separate computer/hardware limitations from sitting in real cockpit.

 

You need to ask more specific questions like "Are stalls/spins/sideslips realistic?", "Is slow flight realistic?" e.t.c. It's much better approach which would give you better overview of how close to real is sim.

 

I am "just" a student pilot with only 25hrs of flight exp, but I am also a programmer and "sim geek" so I am aware how to compare real world flight experience with sim. I have tried dozens of flight sims and different plane models, and I think DCS P51 has the best flight model for single engine prop plane I have ever seen in sim. Just focusing on aerodynamics and what to expect from a plane in the flight- I haven't find anything that is not modeled (yet :smilewink: ).

 

If this flies like the real P51- I hope someday I will know :), but now I can belive testemonials of some other P51 pilots. (BTW: one of them has posted in this thread already).

[Pman]

Yeah, is Yo-Yo wearing an ED jacket, and why arent those on the ED store page :)

 

They are personalized for the staff and aircrew of The Fighter Collection, Nick and Stephen Grey have them as well

[willzah1313]

They are personalized for the staff and aircrew of The Fighter Collection, Nick and Stephen Grey have them as well

 

Further proof that the flight model is the best ever...