need advanced help on trim button press and release

[uboats]

these days I was flying ka50.

I disengaged central trim option.

 

But during the fly, I cannot well operate the trim button that

sometimes, after I released the trim and joystick, the ka50 kept its status,

but other times, when I released the trim and joystick, the ka50 had a big change in status.

 

I was told that if disengaging the central trim, I need to release the joystick soon after releasing the trim button. I did follow that, but not in most flight, after I release the trim button and joystick, ka50 always changed its status a lot.

 

I cannot handle trim bump well. I don't how fast should I release the joystick.

 

btw, I heard that someone always pressed the trim button once he started to move the stick. But what I used to do is pressing the trim just before releasing it. Which way is better?

Edited January 26, 2014 by uboats

[Tone71]

One of the easiest ways to trim is to hold the button down before you change attitude/direction, then let go of the button after your turn. Do you have a Force FeedBack joystick?

[uboats]

One of the easiest ways to trim is to hold the button down before you change attitude/direction, then let go of the button after your turn. Do you have a Force FeedBack joystick?

 

No, I'm using t16000m.

For FFB, will the stick be hold on the position where the trim button is released?

[TurboHog]

T16000 is perfect for helicopters. Just center the stick quickly. With some experience you can release the trimmer in a totally different position than before engaging trim without bouncing.

 

FFB sticks will remain in their current position when you let go of the trim.

[uboats]

T16000 is perfect for helicopters. Just center the stick quickly. With some experience you can release the trimmer in a totally different position than before engaging trim without bouncing.

 

FFB sticks will remain in their current position when you let go of the trim.

 

Do you mean engage the trim at some point during centering the joystick?

[Maverick-X]

You should try to fly with flight director disabled. (5th button at the autopilot channels). This way the input correction of the AP still works, but it wont try to hold the trimmed attitude by itself, so it is really just a trim. Thats basically the same as holding the trim button down. But keep in mind that route following, alt hold and hover hold wont work wile FD is disengaged!

 

With FD disengaged it is far easier to change attitude as the AP does not constantly interfere. For rocketruns it is imho essential to disengage it to get a steady aim.

[uboats]

You should try to fly with flight director disabled. (5th button at the autopilot channels). This way the input correction of the AP still works, but it wont try to hold the trimmed attitude by itself, so it is really just a trim. Thats basically the same as holding the trim button down. But keep in mind that route following, alt hold and hover hold wont work wile FD is disengaged!

 

With FD disengaged it is far easier to change attitude as the AP does not constantly interfere. For rocketruns it is imho essential to disengage it to get a steady aim.

 

I always turned off FD. I just used alt and heading AP. All I experienced happened in this condition.

[Lusik]

All 3 channels except for altitude should always be enabled. You switch them off only in emergency. As Tone71 mentioned, the easiest way is to hold the trim button before any change in attitude and release it when you establish desired attitude.

[Suchacz]

...see my sig :thumbup:

[TurboHog]

Do you mean engage the trim at some point during centering the joystick?

 

Let me explain how I make a manoeuvre:

 

1 - Engage and hold down trimmer

2 - Fly the manoeuvre with the trimmer held down (You will get used to this, make sure it is the easiest to hold button on your stick)

3 - Stabilize her after the manoeuvre

4 - Release the trimmer while you center the stick. Timing and experience is crucial here to avoid bouncing. You can imagine that if you release the trimmer, there is a new 'center' position of the stick. If you hold your non-ffb stick in the same position it will be instantly in an off-center position, causing a bounce if you do not center your non-ffb stick.

[Irregular programming]

You should try to fly with flight director disabled. (5th button at the autopilot channels). This way the input correction of the AP still works, but it wont try to hold the trimmed attitude by itself, so it is really just a trim. Thats basically the same as holding the trim button down. But keep in mind that route following, alt hold and hover hold wont work wile FD is disengaged!

 

With FD disengaged it is far easier to change attitude as the AP does not constantly interfere. For rocketruns it is imho essential to disengage it to get a steady aim.

 

This is really bad practice.

 

 

If you like to fly like that it's fine, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, especially learning the game.

 

It's a much better idea to actually learn how to use the autopilot, and you'll be much much more stable in flight.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Irregular programming

[atsmith6]

I have a slightly personal take on this topic based purely on the fact that a joystick doesn't work like a cyclic. With the cyclic you don't need to quickly return to centre each time you trim, for example.

 

Here's what I've found works very well for manoeuvring the KA-50 simulator when using a spring centred joystick like the Thrustmaster HOTAS:

 

When flying a route with little need to manoeuvre, fly in autopilot (non-flight director) mode

1. press and hold the trimmer button

2. establish your new flight path using cyclic, collective and rudder

3. when you're stable in your new flight path:

3.1 release the trimmer button and then immediately

3.2 centre the joystick and rudder

4. your new flight path should be established and honoured by the autopilot

 

You release the joystick and rudder quickly to ensure that the collective and cyclic position don't change in the sim.

 

When you need to manoeuvre in an arbitrary fashion as happens when taxi'ing around airfields or deftly hiding from tanks, popping up to fire then scooting off somewhere else then use the flight director mode. This is still autopilot stabilised but the helicopter honours your trim and power settings, not your desired flight path, i.e. you are flying the helicopter, not the AP:

1. establish desired flight

2. trim and immediately centre the joystick and rudder

3. go to 1

 

Another method using flight director mode that works well for me for very short periods when manoeuvring in combat is to trim to a known setting for my performance needs using the control display indicator, then fly the combat engagement without trimming again. So for example if I trim to a setting that would give me 200 km/h in order to go in for a quick cannon run followed by a few quick turns to reverse me direction then I'd set my trim, use collective to ensure level flight and about 200 km/h when I get to target. This means that when I get to the target I'm

a) stable

b) able to focus on using the cannon

c) trimmed for a quick getaway regardless of any emergency manoeuvring resulting from unexpected threat emergence.

 

The above methods evolved because using a spring centred stick that is centred at current trim rather than current centre makes deterministic flying a very high workload for me in situations that require extreme manoeuvring. A situation which has got me killed many times because I have to stop to figure out what my chopper is set to do and how to get it to what I want to do.

 

When doing long distance stand-off attacks I'm almost always in auto-pilot mode unless I'm duelling something that's trying to kill me and constantly hopping into and out of cover. Don't forget that the autopilot is there to allow you to focus on deploying the weapons rather than flying the aircraft. It's a workload reducer that aims to make a single pilot capable of all functions of an attach helicopter. Use it and use it intelligently.

 

My two cents... hope they're useful.

[Suchacz]

Oh guys, forget that some flight director exists! There is no standard procedure that includes using of FD. It is only for use in case of emergency, for example if one or more AP chanels are out/damaged...

 

And don't try to fight the autopilot, you should learn how to cooperate with it. It is a pretty advanced device, few trim clicks and you can fly with your hands free and concentrate on the tactical situation and searching for enemy tin cans :smilewink:

Edited January 28, 2014 by Suchacz

[karambiatos]

Oh guys, forget that some flight director exists! There is no standard procedure that includes using of FD. It is only for use in case of emergency, for example if one or more AP chanels are out/damaged...

 

which pretty much never happens, since the APs seem to be 100% or 0% working.

[Irregular programming]

which pretty much never happens, since the APs seem to be 100% or 0% working.

 

I've had degraded autopilot performance after getting hit.

 

But non the less, completely forgetting that the flight director even exists is probably the best advice given in this thread. Do not use it.

[Tone71]

I've had degraded autopilot performance after getting hit.

 

But non the less, completely forgetting that the flight director even exists is probably the best advice given in this thread. Do not use it.

 

Where did I read that Kamov pilots actually use FD mode quite a lot? I use a mixture of both and it works well. Not sure I would tell people not to use it.

[atsmith6]

Afraid I'm sticking to my personal view (not endorsed by any major sponsors) that the FD should be used where appropriate, and not used at other times. While I'm currently convinced that this probably isn't the case in the real KA-50, when using a desktop mounted spring centred stick that is centred relative to trim and not relative to centre, flying without FD mode when doing arbitrary manoeuvring with the constant need to change the flight parameters is the only way I can get the KA simulator to behave as I, the pilot, need it to without getting into parameters that would be considered extremely dangerous IRL (could that be the longest sentence I've ever written?). The argument is simple: A pilot should always be in complete command of their aircraft and use whichever method maximizes their capacity to do so. In the real system, with an AP that has 20% authority and a cyclic directly linked to the steering mechanism I would probably never use FD. But on a desktop PC where the AP has way more than 20% authority and the cyclic isn't connected to the steering linkages and is controlled relative to trim (i.e. a wondering centre) then FD is simply the only way to attain that complete command of the aircraft when performing complex manoeuvres with rapid changes. Like hiding behind buildings and hovering next to the window of the university shower rooms... um... you know, for national security reasons!

 

The best advice I can give is:

Learn to fly the helicopter as best you can in all three states: AP, FD and no AP. This way when the need arises or circumstances throw the unexpected at you then you can perform well regardless of the circumstances, and can decide for yourself which mode best suits your situation and easily switch modes as needed. Don't fly like I tell you. Learn the chopper inside and out, then decide for yourself.

Edited January 30, 2014 by atsmith6

[doveman]

Oh guys, forget that some flight director exists! There is no standard procedure that includes using of FD. It is only for use in case of emergency, for example if one or more AP chanels are out/damaged...

 

And don't try to fight the autopilot, you should learn how to cooperate with it. It is a pretty advanced device, few trim clicks and you can fly with your hands free and concentrate on the tactical situation and searching for enemy tin cans :smilewink:

 

In all the years I've been flying the KA-50, I've never found a way to stop the damn thing trying to kill me by oversteering every time I click and release Trim, so I'll use whatever methods work, even if they're unorthodox (hold trim or engage FD), that allow me to fly the damn thing and not be constantly fighting it's death wish! It would be nice if the autopilot would learn how to cooperate with me, as I'm trying to keep myself and the bird alive whilst it's trying to do the opposite half the time.

 

I don't imagine the real KA-50 acts like this but I'm not flying a real one, I'm flying this sim and it seems to have it's own issues which I have to workaround.

[Irregular programming]

In all the years I've been flying the KA-50, I've never found a way to stop the damn thing trying to kill me by oversteering every time I click and release Trim, so I'll use whatever methods work, even if they're unorthodox (hold trim or engage FD), that allow me to fly the damn thing and not be constantly fighting it's death wish! It would be nice if the autopilot would learn how to cooperate with me, as I'm trying to keep myself and the bird alive whilst it's trying to do the opposite half the time.

 

I don't imagine the real KA-50 acts like this but I'm not flying a real one, I'm flying this sim and it seems to have it's own issues which I have to workaround.

 

As I said before learn how to use the autopilot and you will have a much better experience flying the aircraft.

 

If anything the FD will try to kill you.

[doveman]

As I said before learn how to use the autopilot and you will have a much better experience flying the aircraft.

 

If anything the FD will try to kill you.

 

I've tried everything that's been suggested in the past. Maybe the bug only manifests with certain joysticks or something.

[Maverick-X]

I don't understand why you shouldn't use the FD, as it gives you a much smoother flight! If some people are able to fly the Shark in precision with FD disengaged, fine. But I don't see how this is possible when the AP constantly tries to get back to set attitude while you try to change it... And the FD is way more elegant than just holding the trim button while you do anything apart from straight flight.

[Extranajero]

Maybe the bug only manifests with certain joysticks or something.

 

Could it be something to do with the joysticks dead zone, or maybe it's not always centering in the same place ? Might that confuse the autopilot when the trim button is used ?

 

I have similar issues to you, but they are intermittent - just when I think the autopilot is working OK it starts misbehaving again.

[Tone71]

I don't understand why you shouldn't use the FD, as it gives you a much smoother flight! If some people are able to fly the Shark in precision with FD disengaged, fine. But I don't see how this is possible when the AP constantly tries to get back to set attitude while you try to change it... And the FD is way more elegant than just holding the trim button while you do anything apart from straight flight.

 

:thumbup: Indeed. Nothing wrong with using one, or the other, or both. I prefer to have FD engaged too, but sometimes disable it to use AP during flights between waypoints.

[Extranajero]

Does turn to target function correctly when FD is engaged ?

 

I can't find out for myself right now as I'm in the middle of rebuilding my flight controls

[Tone71]

Does turn to target function correctly when FD is engaged ?

 

I can't find out for myself right now as I'm in the middle of rebuilding my flight controls

 

No, need to disengage for AP functions to work.