Aapje

Yes, so the companies most likely first want to see whether the expensive products are a success (and whether MSFS will support it natively), before they commit to a cheaper variant. But that still doesn't make it impossible to make a much cheaper variant.

@propeler There are a bunch of reasons why we don't have such a device yet, but it's definitely not the case that it is impossible to make a substantially cheaper FFB joystick. The Ursa Minor is not a direct copy. And apparently VKB chose not to or couldn't patent the gimbal. That's how it goes.

This is way too simplistic and one sided. Smaller saves material, which is a cost saving. Overall, miniaturization can save money or cost money. It depends. Going from the vacuum tube to transistors and shrinking those caused huge savings. In that case, smaller was cheaper! There are a lot of ways to make a FFB stick smaller in a way that saves money. For example, use smaller & weaker motors (which in turn means that you need less material for other parts of the system as well). I respect your work on the Rhino, but from what you've said here and elsewhere, I feel that you take your experience in a low volume machine shop and apply it to large volume, factory manufacturing. However, this causes you to make statements that are very wrong. The very fact that you focus on how easy something is to make, rather than how cheap it is to make, shows an incorrect mindset for volume manufacturing. In large volume manufacturing, you can get huge savings by spending quite a bit on an optimized design and things like plastic molds and specially set up machines. These investments would result in a huge price if applied to small volume products, but pay off hugely with bigger volumes. It's a special skill set to know what large volume manufacturing methods work well in what situation, and to design a product that is optimized for certain manufacturing methods. Key to this skill set is to be able to bring costs down, for example by using less material (including by packaging things more efficiently and thus making things smaller), having fewer separate components, using cheaper materials, having fewer manual steps, reducing variance (and thus fewer products that go out of spec and have to be tossed), etc, etc. The product I envision would not focus on realistic levels of force, which wouldn't work well on the desktop anyway. The MSFFB2 has around .8 Nm of torque, but the motors can do more than that (see the resistor mods), so it should probably be possible to go to at least 2 Nm with similar sized motors. Then it would have a fixed stick, saving money on having a robust connector mechanism on both the stick and base. The lack of an extension and having the stick closer to the motor/gears, means that less motor power is needed anyway (this is also why simracing FFB systems often have relatively small wheels, since then the effective torque to the user is higher). That is why patents exist, so a design cannot simply be copied. Consumers also don't tend to like exact copies, except for designer brands. And there is an advantage to being first to market. Furthermore, the sales calculation for the second entrant is much worse, since they will lose a lot of sales to the first mover. So simply by being first and making it so a new entrant cannot enter that market without competition, you discourage new entrants, at least for the exact same niche. This is why different companies tend to try to differentiate their products, so they are not actually fighting over the same exact demand, but they increase the size of the total market. For example, the styling of Lamborghini and Ferrari tends to attract different buyers, so there are people who are willing to buy a Ferrari, who would never consider a Lamborghini and vice versa. Making a lower-budget desktop stick would actually be a way to distinguish oneself from the Rhino/Moza/Winwing/etc, which are all very similar in use case. A desktop FFB stick would attract a whole new population of buyers, who would never buy one of the other FFB options. By your logic, no new devices would ever be made and there would be a lot of exact copies, but in reality that is not the case.

We may see someone develop something similar to the MSFFB2, but then updated with much more modern tech, but no sign of anything like that so far.

Note that I have an overview of the various bases with the information about them here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/88770-ffb-joysticks/ I use that to keep track of the info myself, so I don't have to go looking for it again.

I suggest finding someone with a 3D-printer to make you one of these: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4750811 The Combat pedals seem to be derived from the same origin as the pedals in this thread.

I'm sure it'll keep its value quite well, so you can always resell it and switch over.

I'll wait for the actual prices before I get too excited.

That would be surprising, as they seem to use bigger motors. Why do you think that it is cheaper? Do you have any specific facts/insights to share?

1. I don't see any issues. The 4080 is plenty fast for non-VR use 2. The 360 only fits in the front, which limits the size of the GPU you can use. I would suggest using a smaller AIO (240) or going for air cooling (Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 SE). The latter is more durable and reliable, but you may not like the looks. You don't need a 360 AIO for the 7800X3D. For better clearance, get the non-RGB version of the RAM. 3. Just get a 3-pack of fans and see what extra you can fit in the case. Try to have one more intake fan than exhaust fans, to combat dust.

There is a big difference between motion rigs for VR and non-VR. In the last case, the rig conflicts with the visual cues that you get, while in VR, you can take advantage of the visuals in VR to bridge the gap between what you actually feel and what you ought to feel. The issue with these huge movements, is that you introduce lag. It may look impressive, but for fast flying, I think that a relatively light platform with smaller, precise movements is better than these amusement park rides.

There is little point in waiting for the non-X3D parts. AMD has implied that that the 9800X3D will introduce some improvement beyond what we say in the past. Rumor has it that the new chip will be able to clock higher. And rumor is that the 9800X3D will be released sooner after the non-X3D parts than last time. More like 2 months rather than 6. Then again, the initial price is probably going to be rather high. Note that at least Zen 6 should also be compatible with AM5, so you can also get a 7800X3D and then later upgrade to the last X3D-chip for the AM5 platform.

Not the X3D-part, so it is quite irrelevant for now. Also, it is called Zen.

Properly reviewing hardware requires an obsession with hardware that causes the reviewer to want to sacrifice their performance in game and the time they have to actually fly, to actually review a lot of different things. After all, switching to different hardware just to test it, is going to take away time from flying, and is going to detract from working towards an optimal setup. Instead, the reviewer will be fighting with the hardware (and the settings). And it is very hard to properly review hardware without doing that a lot, gaining experience at reviewing, which is different from getting experience at just playing the game. A good reviewer needs to look beyond their own specific setup and desires, so the review is valuable to way more people than just those who have the exact same setup and desires. If I look at Spudknocker's video's, then I spot a mere 3 hardware review videos, which suggests that he had a very stable setup and doesn't have broad experience with hardware, and doesn't have the required obsession with hardware to be a good reviewer. After all, if he had that obsession, he would have made more than 3 hardware videos. He also reviewed just mainstream stuff of one brand (Trustmaster). I don't trust reviewers whose standard is Trustmaster and who have so little interest in hardware that they just always buy from one brand. And there is also something in Spudknocker's past that puts doubt in my mind over the kind of person he is (lying about being a real pilot). Anyway, I'd like to see a review by G-LOC Media or Antti Ilomäki (note that I have no information to suggest that they got a review unit). Unfortunately, I do not know of any other channels that I can trust to do a good job. I think that Get Your Game On, VR Flight Sim Guy or SimHanger Flight Simulation could do a review that is at least partly informative. Most likely it will actually have cogging when the unit is off, since the anti-cogging in the Rhino and FFBeast only works when the unit is on. So I expect the same here.

I don't see any such videos on his channel, just the reaction in the community tab. Can you provide links to these mysterious videos that no one has of yet linked to, here?

He has a local guy building it for him, so presumably he is free to select the parts that he wants. And I see no need to spend lots more just because one is willing to spend. Perhaps if we save him some money, he can upgrade again sooner. Or he might want to upgrade his controls (FFB?). Note that the 4090 is not just a big financial spend, but going from a 150 Watt TDP to 450 for the video card also has quality of life downsides. The 4080 Super heat output will be less of a shock and it can be brought down a lot more, to levels that many people consider more comfortable, with a nice undervolt. And I disagree with a 1500 W power supply. That is just way overkill and is going to put him further from the peak of the efficiency curve. Max 1000 Watt is fine, especially with a 7800X3D.

Yeah, Noctua is very good, but not value for money. The Peerless Assassin is. And there is no need for an AIO with a 7800X3D. As for water cooling, it has a lot of downsides, including more risks and less durability.

@Nightdare A stick on the side doesn't have to be on the chair. Plenty of people have a stick on the side, but mount it to the desk: In such a configuration, you can rest your arm on the arm rests of the chair and it is much less of an issue to mount the stick higher up. Spudknocker never addressed this option. You claimed that Spudknocker either was using the exact setup that Moza gave to him or that they told him that this is THE way to use this base. However, I'm not sure how you know this, since Spudknocker never wrote this, so it seems likely that you just made this up. It also seems unlikely to me, since Moza is making their own stick, and it seems unlikely that they would ship or suggest a competitor's stick. If this is not in fact the only or the most common stick that people would use with the base, then the issue that Spudknocker had, might be completely absent for most buyers, who use a different stick. So in that case, I consider it unreasonable to call this a blocking issue, but more of a caveat. Now you are just putting words in my mouth. There is no real way for me to respond to this, since it is really just a nonsensical set of sentences. Again, just putting words in my mouth. I never said this, what I said is that it is unfair to claim a product is unfit in general, when someone didn't in fact test use cases where it may work perfectly well. It's not up to me to prove this. You defended the claim that there are no valid uses for the product in the current state, so it is in fact up to you to show the evidence for this claim. My claim is merely that the pictures and arguments presented by Spudknocker, don't address all possible use cases for the product. It's like someone arguing that you should not buy a certain car because golf clubs don't fit in the trunk/boot. It ignores that not all people play golf. Similarly, not all people would use a joystick in the way that Spudknocker tried to use it. Except that you are not defending the customer's POV, but you are taking the issues that one specific person had with one specific setup, and are generalizing it in a way that is not fact-based or reasonable. Mind you, I already said that I don't advise people to buy this yet, but that is based on factual arguments.

@Lee1 I wouldn't suggest waiting for the next AMD CPUs. You can get a very good deal on the 7800X3D right now and the new CPUs will almost certainly start with inflated prices. The difference is not going to be that big. There are major issues with the Intel processors, so steer clear of those. I'd sooner wait for the new GPUs, although they don't seem to be around the corner and might take until early 2025 to arrive. But I wouldn't suggest getting a 4090 right now, since you are almost certainly going to experience huge deprecation once the 5090s hit the market. And without VR, I don't see the huge need anyway. A 4080 Super is a very strong card and is much better value for money. I'd also suggest getting 64 GB of RAM and lots of storage.

Please stick to one topic: I'm sure that we'll see proper reviews in a bit, but I've not seen any so far.

I have my doubts that Moza presented him with the Trustmaster FA/18 stick that he uses, rather than Moza's own stick or no stick. I also don't know what Moza actually said vs what Spudknocker assumed. Like I said, the desktop mount may be intended for a side mount, which would mitigate a bunch of his concerns. And if I look at the website, then they show this mounting solution with the base mounted higher, which would mean that the stick could go fully forward. Potentially, all his issues are either with one specific mounting solution or his choice of stick. The very fact that Spudknocker doesn't seem to realize this, and seems to treat his specific use case as the end all and be all, doesn't fill me with confidence that his statements are all that valuable.

@Nightdare I've not seen anyone use the Rhino with a desktop mount, so it was always going to be unknown how well such a setup works with FFB. I fully expect Moza to have a rapid learning curve and for third parties to come in and solve some issues (like Monstertech). It's a bit silly to argue that a company entering a new market has to be perfect right away. Just let the early adopters run into the issues and then decide based on their findings.

All the released and announced bases do not include a stick, which is standard for high end bases.

I don't agree with a blanket 'don't buy this' warning when the issue is only with a specific use case. It's like arguing that people should not buy a Ferrari because it couldn't get over the speed bump close to your house or because your weekly groceries don't fit inside. A good reviewer looks at the different (reasonable) use cases and points how well it works for each, or if they can't test other use cases, they at least point out that the criticism is only for one specific use case. So in this case, it is a fair warning that the base doesn't seem well suited for a central mounting with the provided mount. But was that mount even intended for central mounting, or for side mounting, where you rest your arm on the arm rest, which tends to be higher than your legs? I recall that at FSExpo, Moza demo'd the base with a side mounting. That said, I'm personally of the opinion that nobody should pre-order this base if they expect any guarantees and are not willing to take a big gamble, since the information provided by Moza is utterly insufficient to be confident that it works well enough to be value for money compared to the Rhino for any use case.

The Aero was a lot better than the XR3 for simming. Their professional line is not targeted at this use case.