Solty

So... 1943 and 1944 nothing happened? Why is everyone so keen on BoB? You have a game called Cliffs of Dover for that. Why again Spit Mk1 and Bf109E3? Why? Battle of the Bulge comes to mind for a good late war battle with tons of equipment. Ardennes forests and mountains. Lots of Belgian countryside. Massive ground and air assaults. Operation Bodenplatte!! All airplanes we will have in the game would fit that map perfectly. (If they just switched K4 for G14 and we had additionally P38L, Tempest and Fw190A8 it would be perfect)

Both, and even more. Up to 81'hg which is what British used, for example to chase V-1's. 81'hg is basically 25lbs in British nomenclature. But it seems that 8th AAF used 72'hg to have more power but didn't wanted go 75'hg (safety I guess). Yet there are reports of 75'hg usage by P-51 pilots.

Or the enemy behind you hit you more, and the white stream disapeared. I fly P-51D, but when I shoot at a 109, it gets hit, starts streaming white and then I hit it more, it stops streaming and then I hit it more and it starts to smoke black. But I would LOOOOOVE if what you said was true. I don't have the beta... so... yeah. Mybe something new is in the works.

Are you sure they are related? I mean FM modelers and system coders might not be the same people, and maybe they work on both at the same time.

Hey. I have a question. Are there going to be any exceptions for files (tracers, gun sounds) or everything will have to be vanilla on each server. And secondly, is it going to automatically kick or ban players on the server, or just prevent you from joining untill you revert to standard files? Thx :)

Cold day huh? I would assume it could have a bit to do with too high oil pressure. During taxi and take off watch for your oil pressure. Do not go over half throttle before it stabilises at "green". It might be the reason your engine has failed later during the mission. Other than that, battle damage.

I would be very much all for early war birds... if it wasn't for the game's modules model. Each plane costs 50$ or more. That means each 1939-1940 airplane would cost a lot. Many people do not have that kind of money. This creates two main possible outcomes: 1. Player base split. We already have problems with more than 10 people on one server. That would create even bigger problems with finding a match that would be worthwhille. or 2. Uneven and ahistorical matchups. There would be one server on which all airplanes would be available... just Spitfire MkI has a very slim chance against Bf109K4 and 109E4 would be very much at a disadvantage from likes of P-51D. I would much rather see more airplanes from late 1943-44 period, because there is a lot of them. Bf109G6, G14 and their subversions would be great additons. But from others it would be great to see Fw190A8, Me410, P38L, Tempest V, Typhoon Mk1b, B25, Mosquito. I would much rather see other fronts from that period. Pacific: N1K, Ki84, A6M5, F4U-1D, F6F Hellcat. Eastern: La5FN or La7, Yak3, Yak9U, IL2M or IL10, Tu-2, Pe-3 etc. So many possibilities. And while I like early war, I just don't see that possible without going the two ways I have mentioned at the begining. But, there are so many airplanes from the mid/late scenario that could each fight one another without too big of a disparity that it would be a shame not to include those first.

Very close to real life ones. For P-51D with 67'hg this one: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p51d-15342.html

Nope.

Performance no. But if you can't see what is behind you, you cannot fight it. And with 30mm Mk108 the 109, if not seen, will make your life shorter than you expect. That table doesn't seem to be correct. P-51D performance after which our DCS P-51D was modeled. Bf109K4: There are many tests that claim different speeds for F4U's and F4U-1D seems to be able to get to 358MPH, but it is only stated that it is on Combat power, which would lead me to believe that it is not WEP, but what in USAAF is called the Military power. The best power is surely shown here though: All data belongs to their respective owners.

Yes I do believe so. The P-51D currently is put an disadvantage by two main issues. The DM and the power output. To understand what I mean, you have to understand the Mustang. The P-51D is not a dogfighter. It is a B&Z aircraft. Because of it's laminar flow profile wing it is unable to stay with maneuvering Bf109's and Spitfires or similar airplanes of the period. It uses it's speed to stay competetive just like the Fw190. The Mustang has to extend and reengage with a different position. The moment you are going to maneuver you are getting into big trouble. Now, K4 negates everything for the Mustang because it is just as fast while beeing tighter turning and overall better at maneuvering, except for the high speed scenario (around 700kph). This creates a situation in which the P-51D player can only pray that this enemy is just inexperienced. 72'hg boost would NOT make the P-51D a beast. It would make it faster than the 109 and capable of it's own fighting style. The 109 is nearly always dictating its own fighting style, because it can climb faster, it is usually above the Mustang when engagement happens and it can stay faster than the Mustang because P-51D has to constantly maneuver not to get hit and thefore it is unable to go into offensive nor escape the situation. 72'hg would just give the P-51D its historical advantage which ties into the whole point of the design of the airframe. SPEED. The speed defined the P-51 program. Even before it was modified to carry lots of fuel, it was all about getting better speed. The first Mustang Mk1 had the alison engine was faster than the P-40 and was even faster than Spit MkV from the same year while having lower power. It is a one trick Pony. Speed and high speed agility. Now in DCS, it is not capable of doing what the Mustang does, because reaching the Vmax is nearly imposible before the K4 reaches its own, and actually catches the P-51.

It is a discussion board. And I am trying to change a thing here that would benefit the whole community. The P-51D even in late 1944 fought usually the G6 and G14. Not the K4. With that matchup the 67'hg would be fine. But because we have the K4 and because there is no alternative to the K4 (other models are not beeing made) and my only option here is to opt for the power output that actually was used by the P-51D in reality, when battling the Bf109K4 and Fw190D9 in this late war scenario. Real life pilots had actually a bit better performing aircraft than we do currently. That is because USAAF knew that Germans were developing new types and especially Fw190D9 and Me262. So the Mustang which became main escort fighter at that point had to stay competetive against them. So the war can end quicker with fewer Allies soldiers dying. It is not an "artificial buff" to the P-51D, because by the time the K4 appeared on the battlefield. Many Mustangs were already using the new fuel and power for 6 months. :book:

Man, I was responding to his claims. It is not as if I have started the discussion about weapon systems. And, no the Mk108 works similar to how it should, it is the .50cal that underperforms drastically. EDIT. And that is because because it works in a completely different way than the Mk108 works. .50cal uses AP ammo but it should API M8 instead and DM is realy lacking in features. API ammo is used to puncture through the skin and drive the magnesium into the vital parts of the airplane and set it afire or explode it. Mk108's ammunition is HE based and works in a way that it provides destruction to the whole structure more effectively. It damages whole sections of the airframe and doesnt puncture it like the .50cal does. Realy I suggest you to read more about it before you make remarks like "bigger bullets" next time. And what because Otto doesn't have a 109 sig he is not biased? The guy who has in his Location: "Where Hartmann fought P-51's". I have an extensive knowledge about P-51D and nearly as big konwledge about Bf109s and their use during the war. So please spare me time with your petty insults.

1. Because at that time the airplane could rocket climb at steep angles with 31m/s ROC and was faster and had no stifness at all, and that is why it was loosing its wings. Now there is stifness and as it should, the 109's pilot cannot pull enough G's to do so. At 600kph the airplane is perfectly flyable with good rudder inputs and elevator steering. 2. Have you ever taken into consideration that 109's cockpit is too small to actually make full deflection possible? Maybe it is just the digital stick indication is wrong and you are actually using full deflection, just the stick is shorter so it cannot travel to full digital display. There are many possibilities which you do not take into consideration it seems. 3. 109 is the only airplane currently that can shoot down the oponent with 1 or 2 shots constantly. While it takes tons of ammo from P-51D to bring down the K4. That is why B&Z in the P-51D is nearly impossible due to DM currently implemented and that is another topic which also takes a lot of time to discuss and was discussed previously. 4. Liquids are not modeled in the game, so sorry but all it does, as every other round is to do DMG to artificial HP of a section of the airplane. Which leads to critical failure and wing flying off or feuselage burning. If you have not noticed that means you play too much 109 :P

Oh realy? The voices that the Mustang was outclassed were during the time when our K4 didn't even resemble 109. There was no stifness on control surfaces and the airplane was capable of 620kph in level at SL and 31m/s rate of climb. Then they have fixed it. And it so happened that Humminbird found out that the K4 was actually underpeforming AFTER the fix. That happened because (as I understood it) ED was using G14 as a reference for aerodynamic modeling. Which was fixed within around two weeks after beeing acknowlaged as a bug. So no. The K4 never was underperforming for a long time.

I've talked and fought against players that took 50% during take off for the Bf109. So it is not only P-51D players that can do that. Some guys I flew with when I had the K4 flew only with 70% of fuel in the 109. Don't act as if fuel quantity change is only available for P-51D.

As we have established before, the main user of P-51D Mustang in Europe.

And yet P-51D used for very long time 72'hg. So? It beeing historical is just another reason for it. It deserves 72'hg because Allies were not idiots. They knew that Germans are developing new airframes and they are direct response to newere Bf109 models and Fw190D9 and Me262. Listen. P-51B used 72'hg when G-14 was not even out. Not even one produced. And yet we have Bf109K4 which is even newer than G14. But we are using the stock 67'hg because people do not understand how it worked during the war.

Fine, be as it may. Doesnt matter. It was used as a Ground Pounder since late 1944 because it lacked range to escort the bombers over Germany. And I do remember word 'relegated' used in one of the American documentaries when they were speaking about the P-47 itself. Thats what you get for not beeing borne an Englishman

So in other words. Germans can get everything from 1945 because they do not claim it should be over Normandy, and yet Allies cannot have P-51D20 or D25 because they were not over Normandy.... What? This has no logic behind it. The main reason why P-51D should get 72'hg was NEVER because of Normandy. There was no P-51D20 nor D25 over Normandy during D-Day. True. But was there a single Bf109K4 and Fw190D9 over Normandy at that time? NO. Not a single! The reason for 72'hg is simple. The 72'hg rating was used even on P-51B/C with V-1650-7 engine prior to P-51D ever showing up(EVEN THOUGH P-51D5 was over Normandy!). And P-51D20 and D25 were using 72'hg HISTORICALLY FIGHTING BF109K4 and FW190D9 during November and December 1944. Your manipulation is geting you into spots when it shows that you have no clue how it worked and that logic is not present in your own assesment of the situation, Kurfurst. We are not getting a historical matchup over D-Day Normandy. But we are getting planes from late war Europe, and they should have fuel and power ratings to represent that conflict! Yeah, Nr3 is the one I used. Relegated as in ASSIGNED

Yeah. Loose sight, loose the fight. It certainly won't be revolutionary. I am wondering, are they going to model it with or without spring tabs.

There were no K4s, D9s and 262s over Normandy. Your point? How many times do we have to go through this? Stop creating this reality in which Mustang has to be specific to the Normandy map and Germans escape that reality because "German engineering". Nobody said "Normandy only". We are talking about ETO or rather WETO which is whole from France to Berlin. And P-51D became very prominent since then. When P-47D comes to DCS you will see what I mean. And I can tell you currently that P-51D even with 67'hg is going to be the best what Allies have in DCS. Have fun Copy Pasting hate against the Mustang. The sad thing is, that you believe that. EDIT: Also check for how long Hub Zemke and his Wolfpack flew and when P-51D was introduced and maybe you understand how it works. Oh and P-47 carries more fuel than P-51D, it just drinks way more as well:3 Racoon just said they are going to make a new 3D model that works within European theater. It was not specified if it will get 72'hg. All we know for now is that they will change it to 3D model from 1944 instead of PTO one. @MiloMorai. Thanks Milo, very interesting. I'll read it in my free time :)

Of course. But it was a vital part of it. Beeing able to escort 8th AAF bombers even into Poland and destroy Luftwaffe oposition there. It was the fighter of choice when it came to escort. And certainly it did an amazing job at grounding the Luftwaffe at this stage of the war. P-47 was unable to do that unltill very late and at that point most of them were relegated to ground support and P-38 was just not good enough to tackle German formations untill the 'L' model. So yeah, P-51D since Normandy up to the end of year 1945 was the most important fighter for USAAF in WETO.

Biggest unit in the ETO was the 8th AAF "Mighty Eight" that was responsible for most German losses in ETO and biggest destruction of German cities and production capabilities. They used 150oct and 72'hg. They were the main P-51D user in the theater.

Wubba Lubba Dub Dub.:joystick: